Religion: Real or Fake

[Kidlicious]

Huh?

Hope != Belief

eg.

I don't have any proof either way but I hope x will happen.

vs.

I don't have any proof either way but I believe x will happen.

Are very different things.

No. They are the same. Hope without belief is not hope at all.

It's too bad that you don't have hope for anything. "Hope is a good thing," as the character Andy said in the movie Shawshank Redeption.

[Jon Miller]

Note that I am not arguing for religious belief here. If you really think it is unlikely, that isn't something I will convince you of (nor will try to).

I am arguing that having beliefs without proof is rational behavior and in fact is more rational than requiring proof for every belief.

JM

[MikeH]

We have measures of the successes of different forms of government, and the efficiency of slavery.

It seems that capitalist democracies outperform other governmental forms, and that slavery is actually quite an expensive inefficient form of labour. So you can certainly back up those theories with statistical evidence not just a belief that they are right or wrong.

There's also clear 'proof' of personal benefit to me if I can choose who leads us and make sure I can't be kept as a slave (although in some historical societies me being a slave might have ensured my survival and been a good choice...).

So, completely different things IMO. In one case the 'belief' is actually a preference of a choice between two real things, be it a form of government or a form of labour.

It's closer to the equivalent of having two real gods and choosing between them which was your favourite to 'believe' in.

[Kidlicious]

Mike,

Don't you think it's reasonable to hope (believe) that democracy is the most efficient form of government?

[Kidlicious]

Should there have been a democratic revolution without any evidence to believe in it?

[MikeH]

1. Hope and belief aren't the same
2. You could hope it was, if it was your personal preference. You could believe that the evidence is that, from what we know so far, it appears to be the most efficient. But if I believed that anarchy was the best form of government for technological development then I could believe it as hard as I wanted, it wouldn't make it true.

[Kidlicious]

1. Hope and belief aren't the same
2. You could hope it was, if it was your personal preference. You could believe that the evidence is that, from what we know so far, it appears to be the most efficient. But if I believed that anarchy was the best form of government for technological development then I could believe it as hard as I wanted, it wouldn't make it true.

I'm not saying it makes it true. I'm simple saying that having hope (belief) is a good thing. Now you may not understand how to hope for something and actually believe it, but that's what I'm talking about.

[MikeH]

Should there have been a democratic revolution without any evidence to believe in it?

It's just a form of government that's evolved over millennia as a good way of doing things, based on human needs, emotions, organisational requirements etc.

[MikeH]

I'm not saying it makes it true. I'm simple saying that having hope (belief) is a good thing. Now you may not understand how to hope for something and actually believe it, but that's what I'm talking about.

You can hope for something, but trying to persuade yourself it's true because it's what you want it to be is just self delusion.

[MikeH]

Jon was making some really good points, I think you're hurting his argument. *shrug*

[Kidlicious]

It's just a form of government that's evolved over millennia as a good way of doing things, based on human needs, emotions, organisational requirements etc.

And this is possible without people believing in it without evidence?

[Kidlicious]

You can hope for something, but trying to persuade yourself it's true because it's what you want it to be is just self delusion.

Again, you aren't proving that there is no value to it.

[MikeH]

You don't need to believe it, the success of one system encourages others to use it and adapt it enhance it. Hence comparing to evolution. Weaker government forms die out, whether or not people believe in them.

[MikeH]

Again, you aren't proving that there is no value to it.

So you are agreeing that belief in God is a form of self delusion, but you want to argue whether self delusion is valuable?

Sure, it can be. But once you are aware that's what you're doing doesn't it defeat the object?

[MikeH]

Placebos only work until people know they are getting the placebo.