Israel Declares War on the Middle East Peace Process, Take #80447

[Zevico]

You do not count your beloved Menachem Begin?

Your attempt to salvage this argument is beyond belief.
I addressed both of these points.

Begin was never on death row. Death row, as we both know, is a place where convicted criminals are prior to their execution.

Begin was part of the Irgun organisation. That is obvious. I have already mentioned what the Irgun has done, which is recounted in that quotation.
You will note that the killing of 2 soldiers took place after WW2, in retaliation for the killing of two Irgun members, which also happened after WW2.
You will note that the Irgun is a distinct entity from the Likud. The former an armed militia and the latter a political party embedded in a democratic society. On its election, the Likud did not elect a coup; it respected the decisions of the courts; and entered into a peace treaty with Egypt.

From 5 to 1: where did you get the "5" from, I wonder? Or "mostly during WW2?"

[Zevico]

Not really, no. Direct occupation of those areas is a serious pain in the ass for Israel.

True.

I'm not certain this is actually true. I used to think so, but a lot of what Israel's officials say is utter bull**** (see: "interested in peace" coupled with non-stop settlement construction). Much like our politicians, of course.

Israeli politicians say what will get them votes. The centre parties are quite clear on the fact that they don't want to control the land they've handed over to the Palestinians already. They say that not for the benefit of the world, or to give a good impression: they say it to win votes. And if they make a mistake on that issue, they'll lose the next election.
So Netanyahu has staked his party's future on the sense (if any) of formally permitting the Palestinians to declare "internationally recognised" states, as opposed to the de facto states they have now, in Gaza and the West Bank.

Oh, I don't. It's only 1/2 the story. The people running Hamas aren't particularly interested either. Israel, however, holds itself out as this great noble thing ("only real democracy in the ME" etc). This results in them being held to a higher standard (and the immediate complaint about double-standards, waaaaah). It's a lot like our politicians blathering about how we're the greatest country on Earth and then when somebody points out something icky we did they get all outraged and offer up how we're better than, say, the USSR. But at least the USSR really was a fair matchup. The Palestinians (indeed, the entire Arab world + Iran) can't take out Israel. It has a couple of hundred nuclear weapons (nudge nudge wink wink say no more, say no more).

-Arrian

I'm not interested in asserting that Israel is some hyper-reasonable entity. It isn't. Israelis aren't interested in it either. It's quite impossible for them to do so, as they've had so many policies on so many issues.
More broadly I think any democratic country is better able to act for the interests of its citizens than non-democratic countries. And I think Israel's policy vis-a-vis the Palestinians, while not perfect, is more sensible than the Palestinian one.

[MOBIUS]

Your attempt to salvage this argument is beyond belief.
I addressed both of these points.

Begin was never on death row. Death row, as we both know, is a place where convicted criminals are prior to their execution.

Begin was part of the Irgun organisation. That is obvious. I have already mentioned what the Irgun has done, which is recounted in that quotation.
You will note that the killing of 2 soldiers took place after WW2, in retaliation for the killing of two Irgun members, which also happened after WW2.
You will note that the Irgun is a distinct entity from the Likud. The former an armed militia and the latter a political party embedded in a democratic society. On its election, the Likud did not elect a coup; it respected the decisions of the courts; and entered into a peace treaty with Egypt.

From 5 to 1: where did you get the "5" from, I wonder? Or "mostly during WW2?"

Ah so it was OK to engage in terrorist acts after WWII? They were being nice before?

Also, you papered over Lehi's role in all of this, seeing as they assassinated Lord Moyne during WWII, er but that's OK in your argument because they're not Irgun - how very convenient for you eh?

And you can't discount Lehi as some whackjob splinter group (who also assassinated a UN ambassador in 1948!), because one of their Leaders was Yitzhak Shamir - another Israeli prime minister with copious amounts of blood on his hands!

Israel is a vicious and warlike nation, who will do everything they can to keep this conflict bubbling along - it is in their own best interests! They even bite the hand that feeds from time to time, such as the outrageous proposal to agree to continue freezing the building of settlements in return for their spy that the US caught spying on the US! Not to mention the attack on the USS Liberty - The US has gone to war for far less - like imaginary WMDs for example...

As for the Palestinians, what would you do if someone stole large chunks of your land and then did their best to ethnically cleanse you from it - but worse still are still doing it!?

How would you like it if someone did it to you?

There will be no lasting peace until Israel gives up all the illegally settled land - the first step of which is to freeze the ongoing orgy of building that is a direct provocation to the Palestinians...

[BeBMan]

If the UK was in control of the ME at some point this entire conflict wouldn't have happened.

*runs*