Israel Declares War on the Middle East Peace Process, Take #80447

[NoodleNaught]

So iam not really understanding the problem here. Jews want to annex all of the muslim parts of Palestine, and the muslims are to weak to oppose them? If this is the problem then why the hell don't we just let them annex Palestine? Might makes right after all.

[bc1871]

[St Jon]

This is an idiotic exercise in moral equivalence.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is between three groups: (1) a liberal democratic society; (2) Fatah: a Marxist-Leninist group, whose basic ideology is dead, whose members are members merely for the salary and no longer think of themselves as having anything to fight for, whose people tolerate them from fear, and whose very existence is thanks only to the Israeli military, without which the West Bank would probably fall to Hamas ; (3) Hamas: a group who genuinely think that granting power to a "Islamic elite" (as opposed to a Marxist elite) will lead to a social paradise and ultimate victory against "the world" [inter alia, Israel, the United States, Europe etc], and that the following are perfectly acceptable: (i) summary executions; (ii) sex discrimination; (iii) dictatorship; (iv) an end to the rule of law; (v) theft from aid groups to enrich the elite; (vi) indiscriminate murder of civilians to achieve all ends.

I would take issue with you in defining Israel as a Liberal/Democratic state. Such a state does not disenfranchise the majority of the citizens within its' borders. Those citizens are not interlopers or migrants but the indigenous population of Palestine!

This whole issue is being side-tracked by the more generalised Muslim extremism born, to a very large extent, from the Islamic revolution in Iran. That is a much newer problem than the Jewish occupation of Palestine although it has indeed worsened, and made more complex, the situation.

What really is the issue is of national identity and justice. You cannot steal a people's country and not expect them to react with a certain degree of hostility. Prior to independence five of the future Presidents/Prime Ministers of Israel were on death row awaiting execution by the UK authorities for Terrorism, largely the murder of British troops, so it is far from fair to paint Israel as an innocent little puppy. It should be added that the majority of these crimes actually took place during, not after, the 2nd World War so whilst British troops were dying in the fight against Nazism Jewish terrorists were happy to join in the fun.

The state of Israel is an illegal, repressive and violent nation that cares nothing for who or where it kills. It treats the Palestinians as the Turks, another liberal western democracy, treats the Kurds. The World would have been a better place had the US not forced its' creation in the first place!

[Zevico]

I would take issue with you in defining Israel as a Liberal/Democratic state. Such a state does not disenfranchise the majority of the citizens within its' borders. Those citizens are not interlopers or migrants but the indigenous population of Palestine!

This whole issue is being side-tracked by the more generalised Muslim extremism born, to a very large extent, from the Islamic revolution in Iran. That is a much newer problem than the Jewish occupation of Palestine although it has indeed worsened, and made more complex, the situation.

What really is the issue is of national identity and justice. You cannot steal a people's country and not expect them to react with a certain degree of hostility. Prior to independence five of the future Presidents/Prime Ministers of Israel were on death row awaiting execution by the UK authorities for Terrorism, largely the murder of British troops, so it is far from fair to paint Israel as an innocent little puppy. It should be added that the majority of these crimes actually took place during, not after, the 2nd World War so whilst British troops were dying in the fight against Nazism Jewish terrorists were happy to join in the fun.

The state of Israel is an illegal, repressive and violent nation that cares nothing for who or where it kills. It treats the Palestinians as the Turks, another liberal western democracy, treats the Kurds. The World would have been a better place had the US not forced its' creation in the first place!

You have little knowledge of the history of this conflict. No President or Prime Minister of Israel has ever been imprisoned, let alone come to death row, ever. If they have, perhaps you should inform your nation of it. Doubtless they would be fascinated to find out from you who they imprisoned--a parade shall be had in your honour. Your willingness to believe utter tripe without having the good sense to check its accuracy is quite astounding. I am no longer willing to believe you merely ignorant. Probably you are also stupid.

You wish to make some claim to Jewish groups acting against the greater interest of the world. I see no reason why that prejudice should be respected.

Your comments are also ill-informed in most other respects.

Israel has defined its borders as being the territory composed of (i) 1948 armistice lines and (ii) Jerusalem. Every resident within the armistice borders was defined as, and was entitled to, citizenship in the Israeli state upon its establishment.

It annexed Jerusalem after the 1967 war, a war brought upon quite openly and deliberately by acts of war as well as by the open, universally witnessed and recognised amassment of Arab troops on its borders. That was coupled with the Egyptians cutting off Israeli shipping (an act of war), and radio announcements by various Arab leaders to the effect that the "Zionist experiment" (and with it, the Jewish people of Israel) would soon eradicated. Israel decided to achieve victory before the war began. It launched a pre-emptive strike which essentially decimated the Arab air forces. With no air force, the Arab forces were doomed. I say this merely to give a very brief history and, in turn, to state that the war was not a war of choice for Israel. It was part of a fight for its right to exist.

Having annexed Jerusalem, it offered the same citizenship to its Arab residents as those Arab residents living with the 48' borders. Unlike them, the East Jerusalemite Arabs refused and refuse to take up citizenship to this day.

Israel regards these as its borders; it regards territory outside that as disputed. It is simply unreal to suppose that Israel, having handed over governance of Gaza and the West Bank to the Palestinians, is ostensibly interested in that land at the same time.

You do not address, but simply assume, that the issue has been sidetracked since the funding of various Islamist groups by Iran (which is what I take your second paragraph to mean). As to the issue of the "Jewish occupation": the Jews came to Palestine without violence, but by the voluntary purchase of land from Arab landowners quite willing to sell what they considered to be tracts of desert or swamp. To call the voluntary purchase of land a forcible "occupation" or theft is simple nonsense.

There are three other subjects mentioned in your posting.
(i) British-Jewish relations during World War 2. You are as ill-informed on this issue as all others. No British soldiers were killed by Jewish groups during world war 2.

During World War 2, 5000 Jews to fight with the British in a specially named Jewish Brigade to assist in the war effort. This is to aside the various commando/spy/guerilla missions conducted by Jews of European origin who volunteered to return to Europe during World War 2 under British command so as to aid in the war.

In addition, the main jewish militia, the Haganah, along with the main Jewish political grouping, actively cooperated with and aided the British during World War 2.

Two smaller groups did not. One, Lehi, went so far as to assassinate Lord Moyne, a British Minister, in November 1944--after the allies entered Normandy, at which point victory was a matter of time. That is the sum of Lehi's British casualties during its history. Anothr group , Irgun, contented itself with property damage during WW2.

(ii) Post-WW2, the Irgun bombed a British Hotel; 92 people were killed. The Irgun claimed it phoned he hotel beforehand to give warning. That would be consistent with prior conduct which focused on property damage. The evidence appears to be that such warnings were regular and the British had ceased reacting to them as a consequence.

(iii) Turkey is not, and never was, a liberal Western democracy. It was once a military dictatorship; it had periods of greater and lesser civil participation in its decision-making structures. Now it is ruled by Islamists.

(iv) The US did not force the creation of Israel. The British decision to leave was taken independently of the Americans. The US was the first major country--and I think, but do not recall if it was the first country full stop--to recognise Israel. It also voted in favour of its establishment in 1947 but that was a General Assembly vote: non-binding, and in any case only one vote among many.

[Elok]

You Brits are real uptight about hating Jews. It was a reference to their calendar. Today is the 20th of Shawwal, 1431. You should learn to take your Jew-hating less seriously. Personally I like to focus on how Jews are money grubbing Christ killers that run Hollywood and the Banks, instead of getting all political about housing construction and real estate in the West Bank. That **** is boring.

If it makes you feel better, I got the gag at once. But Jew-hating is played out. I prefer to bash gnosticism. It's easier since there aren't any gnostics left to fight back. Screw them and their weird integration of neoplatonism and near-eastern mystery religions. If the created world were totally evil, we wouldn't have cheesecake.

[Hueij]

This is an idiotic exercise in moral equivalence.

No it's not. It's a study in trying to understand where HC's ideas come from. As a study, it was a major #fail though...

[NoodleNaught]

We should just kill all middle easterns and be done with it.

[Al B. Sure!]

We should just kill all middle easterns and be done with it.

Oerdin?

[Elok]

No, I suspect he's just a very attention-hungry teenager, or else a piss-poor troll.

[NoodleNaught]

Actually no i believe that might makes right so Isreal is allowed to do as it pleases with all the muslims, so long as they bow down and take it up the ass.

[St Jon]

You do not count your beloved Menachem Begin?

In 1942 he joined the Irgun which had split from the main Jewish military organization, the Haganah, in 1931. In 1944 Begin assumed the organization's leadership, determined to force the British government to remove its troops entirely from Palestine. Soon after he assumed command, a formal 'Declaration of Revolt' was publicized, and armed attacks against British forces were initiated.

Begin issued a call to arms and from 1944–48 the Irgun launched an all-out armed rebellion, perpetrating many attacks against British installations and posts. Begin financed these operations by extorting money from Zionist businessmen, and running bogus robbery scams in the local diamond industry, which enabled the victims to get back their losses from insurance companies.

Under Begin’s leadership, the Irgun continued to carry out operations such as breaking into Acre Prison, and the kidnapping and hanging of two British sergeants in order to prevent, and then in retaliation to, the execution of several Irgun members by the British. Growing numbers of British soldiers and policemen were deployed to quell the Jewish uprising, yet Begin managed to elude captivity, at times disguised as a rabbi. MI5 placed a 'dead-or-alive' bounty of £10,000 on his head after Irgun threatened 'a campaign of terror against British officials', saying they would kill Sir John Shaw, Britain's Chief Secretary in Palestine.

[N35t0r]

Actually no i believe that might makes right so Isreal is allowed to do as it pleases with all the muslims, so long as they bow down and take it up the ass.

Pray tell where you live? I could use some extra furniture.

[NoodleNaught]

In the words of the Duke "Those Alien Bastards Are Gonna Pay For Shooting Down My Ride"

[Arrian]

It is simply unreal to suppose that Israel, having handed over governance of Gaza and the West Bank to the Palestinians, is ostensibly interested in that land at the same time.

Yeah, because decades of settlement policies by both Left and Right-wing Israeli governments display clearly that Israel has no interest in Palestinian land.

It takes some real gall to make the above claim whilst chastising someone else for ignorance.

I wish my country had no part in this cluster****. Sadly, it does, and that has consequences for the two participants (I happen to think that practically unconditional US backing boosts hardliner Israelis and delays actual compromise. This is no doubt also true - probably more - re: outside backing of Hamas).

-Arrian

[Hauldren Collider]

Yeah, because decades of settlement policies by both Left and Right-wing Israeli governments display clearly that Israel has no interest in Palestinian land.

It takes some real gall to make the above claim whilst chastising someone else for ignorance.

I wish my country had no part in this cluster****. Sadly, it does, and that has consequences for the two participants (I happen to think that practically unconditional US backing boosts hardliner Israelis and delays actual compromise. This is no doubt also true - probably more - re: outside backing of Hamas).

-Arrian

Israel made great concessions in giving back Gaza and the West Bank. They're willing to go to much further lengths than the Palestinians. Hamas wants nothing short of the eradication of all Jews in the middle east. What exactly makes you believe that Israel's unwillingness to negotiate further is the limiting factor for peace in the middle east?