Israel Declares War on the Middle East Peace Process, Take #80447

[Hauldren Collider]

HC in 1939.

I'm sorry, did you just compare building a few houses to the German invasion of Poland?

[Felch]

Yes, but only because he can't distinguish between destruction and construction.

[Al B. Sure!]

Occupation is occupation... The Israelis need some lebensraum!

[BlackCat]

Occupation is occupation... The Israelis need some lebensraum!

Well, as a yanky, you are very accustomed to this concept.

[Al B. Sure!]

Well, as a yanky, you are very accustomed to this concept.

Yes. Manifest Destiny and all that... it's generally not viewed so highly though.

[BlackCat]

Well, then return all that land to the original owners and pull out the squatters

[Zevico]

Huh? No Arabs in the Levant? I don't think they could truly believe that unless they've been brain-washed.

You misunderstand. The term "Palestinian people" refers to the nationalist self-conception of the Palestinians as a people. Any historian will tell you that this self-conception is relatively recent in character.
The "Arab" objection to the Jewish presence in Israel predates the creation of the Palestinian identity. The Palestinian identity, so far as it exists, began somewhere in the 60's or 70's. Prior to that there were Arabs in the area who thought of themselves as Arabs, either without reference to any greater nation, or they thought of themselves as Egyptians, perhaps Syrians, etc. They objected to the Israeli presence; they did not call for the establishment of a Palestinian nation or state as such.
Thus, in making policy for Gaza, some Israelis at various times took the view that it would eventually be removed to Egypt in the context of any final peace negotiation (for example), as it had been an Egyptian possession from 48'-67'.

[Zevico]

I'm no expert but from my understanding, while the Arab governments are quick to support Palestinian sovereignty, it's moreso because they want to have a political stance against Israel and also because they want the Palestinians to get the hell out of their countries. Palestinian-Arab relations are very sour except when it comes to Palestinian sovereignty which is the one area where they are in much agreement.

Palestinians are often viewed as lawless and useless refugees who drain resources and have a tendency to militant radicalism which undermines the power of the government of the country in which they are inhabiting (ie- Lebanon). That is why there were incidents like Black September in Jordan. I have also seen similar attitudes displayed by Arabs in America against Palestinian Americans. Arabs and Palestinians are generally not fond of one another.

This view is incorrect.

It is true that there is a great deal of racism and mutual hatred as between the various Arab peoples.
However, this view obscures the pretensions that each of Syria, Jordan and Egypt had over some or all of the land presently made up of Israel, the West Bank and Gaza. These pretensions informed the policy of each for some time. It is only recently, about the 90's, that each of Jordan, Egypt etc, relinquished these claims.
Further, it obscures the present sovereignty enjoyed by Hamas in Gaza and to a lesser degree Fatah in the West Bank. There is presently a "Three State Reality", if you will, in place of the much vaunted "Two-State Solution." Each of the three wars with the other, but Fatah and Israel are each more interested in destroying Hamas than one another at present.
Lastly, it obscures the active support given by the various governments to each of these militant movements. That support may be monetary or military in character. Or it may emanate from the various media organs of those States, which distribute racist propaganda aligned against Jews, the Israeli State, and, for that matter, concepts such as democracy, pluralism and liberalism. These media organs praise and support the very militant groups with which these persons of which you speak are so disgusted. The problem is self-made, and is a product of the various dictatorships seeking to entrench their rule by distracting the people from the real problem--dictatorship--so that they might focus on foreign "parasites" (Palestinians) or the "Little Satan" (Israel). It is all very calculated. And even though Arabs sometimes understand that they come from dictatorships rather than democratic countries, the unconscious force of propaganda is a powerful thing. It takes rigorous thought to recognise its effects upon oneself, and few people, whether in the Soviet Union or dictatorial countries, are capable of so recognising all of the evils and lies of the State from within. Emigrants from dictatorial countries often suffer such prejudices as they were taught to believe in them in their homelands. Often they realise most of these prejudices are nonsense, sometimes they do not.
"Peace", as you call it, will not be achieved whilst Palestinians view the construction of homes as a crime worthy of death.

[Zevico]

Unfortunately any resolution is unlikley so version 90,001 is likely as well . Significant portions of the Arab world continues to take the position that Israel (of any size) should not exist and should be eradicated. Its hardly the opener for good and fruitful peace negotiations.

I am currently reading a history of Israel. While somewhat pro-Isreal it is critical in tone when it discusses the moves to settle the occupied territorities. The reality is that Israll generally viewed themselves as upstarts and underdogs fighting for their very survival and many Israelis continue to be uncomfortable with any role as an occupier. This is balanced somewhat by a real security concern.

Here are some somewhat relevant positions that I believe are largely held by Israel

1. There was no Palistinian people. There were Arabs in Egypt, Iraq, Saudi, (Trans)Jordan, Syria, Kuwait and several other nations on the Arabiian peninsula but these "nations" were largely western construction.

2. The Arabs controlled the vast majority of the lands on the Peninsula and could have "settled" any displaced persons from the various conflicts in any number of the large tracts of largely empty lands. Israel itself settled far more people, both in comparison to population and to available land (jews fleeing Eurpoe and later many Russian Jews etc ) in a far shorter period. Israel believes that the sole reason that refugee camps remain is that various Arab countries wish to have them rermain as a focus for hatred on Israel.

3. Israel mostly believes it has acted with restraint in its dealings with enemies that call for their extermination. They see themselves as benevolent occupiers that allow a degree of autonomy that many Arab peoples would not enjoy if they were part of any one of the nearby Arab countries

4. This settler issue is a very divisive one in Israeli politics.

An accurate summation.

[dannubis]

So you are saying that the Palestinians should refrain themselves from using excessive force to settle an argument ?

[Zevico]

So you are saying that the Palestinians should refrain themselves from using excessive force to settle an argument ?

I am saying that Palestinians are using force, among other strategies, to settle the argument of Israel's existence.

[Elok]

The phrase "Middle East Peace Process" has for the past decade or so been meaningless except as a tired bit of black humor.

[Arrian]

So in protest of a few homes being built...

Dude, it's not "a few homes." Do some basic research on Israeli settlements. They've been building in the occupied territories for decades. Over time, they've turned them into Swiss Cheese. Facts On The Ground. It's a long-term strategy designed to stengthen Israel's hand at the negotiation table (if you're hopeful) and/or eventually eliminate the possibility of a Palestinian state (if you're cynical). Israel can say that it's ok with a Palestinian state a hundred times and it will be utter bull**** until the settlement construction is not only halted, but rolled back. Which will not happen.

The Palestinians have much to answer for as well, it's true. Blowing up busses and discos and such is disgusting behavior. They've missed opportunities for peace that are better than they have now (in the interim, settlements activity has continued, making their position weaker).

But they really have been screwed (and certainly not just by Israel, but the surrounding Arab nations), are currently being screwed, and will continue to get screwed.

-Arrian

[C0ckney]

arrian puts it very well

[Hauldren Collider]

Dude, it's not "a few homes." Do some basic research on Israeli settlements. They've been building in the occupied territories for decades. Over time, they've turned them into Swiss Cheese. Facts On The Ground. It's a long-term strategy designed to stengthen Israel's hand at the negotiation table (if you're hopeful) and/or eventually eliminate the possibility of a Palestinian state (if you're cynical). Israel can say that it's ok with a Palestinian state a hundred times and it will be utter bull**** until the settlement construction is not only halted, but rolled back. Which will not happen.

The Palestinians have much to answer for as well, it's true. Blowing up busses and discos and such is disgusting behavior. They've missed opportunities for peace that are better than they have now (in the interim, settlements activity has continued, making their position weaker).

But they really have been screwed (and certainly not just by Israel, but the surrounding Arab nations), are currently being screwed, and will continue to get screwed.

-Arrian

Well yeah I get that. I'm just saying I'm not terribly sympathetic to Palestinian separatism at all.

The only advantage Palestinians get from independence would be the ability to:
a. Murder more jews
b. Perpetuate their 14th-century mindset of racism, violence, sexism and general being ****ing backwardness

So yeah. Freedom, self-determination, all that wonderful ****. Or they could be rich and tolerant.