Israel Declares War on the Middle East Peace Process, Take #80447

[Arrian]

Israel made great concessions in giving back Gaza and the West Bank.

Not really, no. Direct occupation of those areas is a serious pain in the ass for Israel.

They're willing to go to much further lengths than the Palestinians.

I'm not certain this is actually true. I used to think so, but a lot of what Israel's officials say is utter bull**** (see: "interested in peace" coupled with non-stop settlement construction). Much like our politicians, of course.

What exactly makes you believe that Israel's unwillingness to negotiate further is the limiting factor for peace in the middle east?

Oh, I don't. It's only 1/2 the story. The people running Hamas aren't particularly interested either. Israel, however, holds itself out as this great noble thing ("only real democracy in the ME" etc). This results in them being held to a higher standard (and the immediate complaint about double-standards, waaaaah). It's a lot like our politicians blathering about how we're the greatest country on Earth and then when somebody points out something icky we did they get all outraged and offer up how we're better than, say, the USSR. But at least the USSR really was a fair matchup. The Palestinians (indeed, the entire Arab world + Iran) can't take out Israel. It has a couple of hundred nuclear weapons (nudge nudge wink wink say no more, say no more).

-Arrian

[DinoDoc]

Yeah, because decades of settlement policies by both Left and Right-wing Israeli governments display clearly that Israel has no interest in Palestinian land.

It isn't as if Land for Peace deals have yielded much in the way of progress with the Palestinians though.

[dannubis]

Look at the body count Jack / Jack Jr. Then come talk about peace.

[NoodleNaught]

What is the body count?

[Dinner]

As a practical matter the Palestinians have twice turned down real comprehensive peace proposals because they preferred continuing the conflict to actually ending it. Thus I have no sympathy for the Palestinians what so ever, they're their own worst enemy. The realpolitic of the matter is Israel needs some way to show the Palestinians "See? Continuing the conflict will only cause you to lose still more so you'd be better off actually agreeing to the third genuine peace offer instead of rejecting it like you did the first two." The settlements are an excellent way to put pressure on the Palestinians showing them they're going to keep losing space until they stop acting like fools and agree to peace.

[NoodleNaught]

The only thing the palestinians know is war, they will never accept a peace settlement, so long as there is still a jew left alive to propose one.

[Felch]

The body count just shows that Israelis are better at killing than the Palestinians. Nobody disputes that. What we're saying is that Israelis tend to be reluctant professionals, while the Palestinians are enthusiastic amateurs. That is to say, Palestinian leadership is enthusiastic about sending illiterate children off to be slaughtered while they delay the cause of peace over bull****.

[Hauldren Collider]

The Israeli tanks that blast children are not nearly as evil as the Hamas leadership that sends children out to get blasted by tanks for some PR.

[NoodleNaught]

So basically we are all in agreement that the reason this war drags on is not Israels fault but the Palestinians?

[Hauldren Collider]

I would agree with that.

[C0ckney]

well that's great. now we've canvassed the opinion of the high school (mas)debating team, we can close the thread.

[NoodleNaught]

Good i'm glad that almost everyone is in agreement.

[NoodleNaught]

well that's great. now we've canvassed the opinion of the high school (mas)debating team, we can close the thread.

It's Time To Kick Ass And, Chew Bubble Gum And, I'm All Out Of Gum.

[C0ckney]

who is this annoying little twerp?

[Zevico]

Yeah, because decades of settlement policies by both Left and Right-wing Israeli governments display clearly that Israel has no interest in Palestinian land.

It takes some real gall to make the above claim whilst chastising someone else for ignorance.

I wish my country had no part in this cluster****. Sadly, it does, and that has consequences for the two participants (I happen to think that practically unconditional US backing boosts hardliner Israelis and delays actual compromise. This is no doubt also true - probably more - re: outside backing of Hamas).

-Arrian

I am sorry: I assumed my words were clear enough, but apparently they were not.
Israel handed over governance of Gaza (in its entirety), to the Palestinians.
They handed over governance of most Palestinian towns and most of their surrounds to the Palestinians.
Having done so, they have no particular interest in retaining those towns in respect of which control has been handed over.
Clear enough?