Christianity ruins families.

[BlackCat]

They went to break his legs so he would die faster, but they found that he was already dead. They poked a spear through his side, and congealed blood flowed out, indicating that he had died on the cross.

You didn't answer my question. Breaking a leg or two doesn't speed up the death, neither will a poke with a spear if it's just superficial.

[giblets]

Except they don't.

All of them say that the last supper occured two days before the sabbath, and that the crucifixion occured the day before the sabbath and the day after the last supper.

There's no contradiction.

Your whole argument revolves around the faulty assumption that the last supper occurred on the Passover.

Assumption? Matthew, Mark and Luke all say the last supper was a passover seder. So you have one source (synoptic gospels) that thinks Jesus died on passover and one that thinks he died the day before.

[BlackCat]

Then perhaps you shouldn't be commenting on how the bible is inconsistant. If you aren't willing to stand by your assertion, what's the point of making them?

Ben, how are you expecting to been taken serious when you so blatantly misquotes someone ?

If I get Gribbler rigth, then he certainly is prepared to discuss the issue as long as the other side isn't :

a compulsively dishonest person who happens to be biased in favor of it.

[Ben Kenobi]

Was jesus unusually weak, had a severe disease or what ? It usually takes several days to die with this kind of execution.

They went to break his legs so he would die faster, but they found that he was already dead. They poked a spear through his side, and congealed blood flowed out, indicating that he had died on the cross.

[Ben Kenobi]

This isn't an argument over what day of the week Jesus was crucified. I'm pointing out that the gospels disagree on whether it was passover or the day before. Your reading comprehension is terrible.

Except they don't.

All of them say that the last supper occured two days before the sabbath, and that the crucifixion occured the day before the sabbath and the day after the last supper.

There's no contradiction.

Your whole argument revolves around the faulty assumption that the last supper occurred on the Passover.

[BlackCat]

So Jesus was crucified on 12 noon, of the Day of Preparation, the friday before the Passover. He died later that afternoon, and was taken off the cross before the evening.

So where's the contradiction? The synoptics say it was the friday. John says it was on the friday.

Was jesus unusually weak, had a severe disease or what ? It usually takes several days to die with this kind of execution.

[giblets]

Friday is the day before Passover.

It can be... passover can start on any day of the week. Regardless, the day before passover is a "day of preparation".

Yes, it does say that. It says that the day of the preparation, the day prior to the SABBATH, which is the saturday.

So the day prior is the Friday, the day of preparation for the coming passover on the Satuday on the sabbath.

the day before "a special sabbath" i.e. an annual sabbath, not a weekly one. In other words, the day before passover

The last supper was on the Thursday, before the sabbath. Thursday, last supper. Friday, crucifixion and death, Saturday, the Sabbath.

Your argument is terrible. You don't understand the whole timeline at all. The last supper was on the thursday, two days before the sabbath. The crucifixion was on the Friday, the day before the sabbath. He died on the Friday afternoon. Was buried on the Sabbath, and rested until the Sunday morning, when the tomb was found empty.

Frankly, I'm disappointed. I expected a good argument.

This isn't an argument over what day of the week Jesus was crucified. I'm pointing out that the gospels disagree on whether it was passover or the day before. Your reading comprehension is terrible.

[Ben Kenobi]

1. day of preparation can either mean Friday or the day before passover

Friday is the day before Passover.

2. John 19:14 says it's the day of preparation for the passover when he's crucified... so there's no reason to assume "day of preparation" means Friday in John.

Yes, it does say that. It says that the day of the preparation, the day prior to the SABBATH, which is the saturday.

So the day prior is the Friday, the day of preparation for the coming passover on the Satuday on the sabbath.

3. the synoptics say he was killed on passover... in Mark 14, Matthew 26, and Luke 22 the last supper is a passover seder, meaning that when Jesus is crucified the next day it's passover.

The last supper was on the Thursday, before the sabbath. Thursday, last supper. Friday, crucifixion and death, Saturday, the Sabbath.

So in the synoptic gospels the last supper is a passover seder and he gets crucified on passover. John... the last supper is not a passover seder, but the night before, and he gets crucified on the day before passover.

And while we're at it... the gospels can't even agree on what time of day he gets crucified.

Your argument is terrible. You don't understand the whole timeline at all. The last supper was on the thursday, two days before the sabbath. The crucifixion was on the Friday, the day before the sabbath. He died on the Friday afternoon. Was buried on the Sabbath, and rested until the Sunday morning, when the tomb was found empty.

Frankly, I'm disappointed. I expected a good argument.

[giblets]

Then perhaps you shouldn't be commenting on how the bible is inconsistant. If you aren't willing to stand by your assertion, what's the point of making them?

It's not that I don't have a justification for my opinion, it's that talking to you is a waste of time.

This is John 19:31. Jesus was crucified on the Friday.

Matthew says:



The sixth hour was 12 noon. The 9th hour was 3 o'clock.

So Jesus was crucified on 12 noon, of the Day of Preparation, the friday before the Passover. He died later that afternoon, and was taken off the cross before the evening.

So where's the contradiction? The synoptics say it was the friday. John says it was on the friday.

1. day of preparation can either mean Friday or the day before passover
2. John 19:14 says it's the day of preparation for the passover when he's crucified... so there's no reason to assume "day of preparation" means Friday in John.
3. the synoptics say he was killed on passover... in Mark 14, Matthew 26, and Luke 22 the last supper is a passover seder, meaning that when Jesus is crucified the next day it's passover.

So in the synoptic gospels the last supper is a passover seder and he gets crucified on passover. John... the last supper is not a passover seder, but the night before, and he gets crucified on the day before passover.

And while we're at it... the gospels can't even agree on what time of day he gets crucified.

WRT to textual accuracy, everyone else is worse. Homer is the best.

Again, if we apply your skepticism equally, the texts we have of the most important historical sources, even Thucydides, we have far more copies and older copies of scripture.

So if you ask whether the sources we have today are accurate, ie, what is on the page is what was written, then there's simply no comparison.

Sure, the new testament is relatively close to the original for something from that time period, but if someone wants to say the new testament is the "word of God" or whatever they have to cope with the fact there are corruptions. And of course they're taking it on faith that it was accurate to begin with.

[Ben Kenobi]

How close Homer is to the original isn't very important to anyone who doesn't believe Homer was divinely inspired.

WRT to textual accuracy, everyone else is worse. Homer is the best.

Again, if we apply your skepticism equally, the texts we have of the most important historical sources, even Thucydides, we have far more copies and older copies of scripture.

So if you ask whether the sources we have today are accurate, ie, what is on the page is what was written, then there's simply no comparison.

[Ben Kenobi]

I'm not keen on discussing the level of internal consistency of the Bible

Then perhaps you shouldn't be commenting on how the bible is inconsistant. If you aren't willing to stand by your assertion, what's the point of making them?

But if you want to refuse to recognize an inconsistency, the synoptic gospels think Jesus was crucified on passover and John thinks he was crucified the day before passover.

Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down

This is John 19:31. Jesus was crucified on the Friday.

Matthew says:

From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land. About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"—which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

The sixth hour was 12 noon. The 9th hour was 3 o'clock.

So Jesus was crucified on 12 noon, of the Day of Preparation, the friday before the Passover. He died later that afternoon, and was taken off the cross before the evening.

So where's the contradiction? The synoptics say it was the friday. John says it was on the friday.

[giblets]

How so?

I'm not keen on discussing the level of internal consistency of the Bible with a compulsively dishonest person who happens to be biased in favor of it. But if you want to refuse to recognize an inconsistency, the synoptic gospels think Jesus was crucified on passover and John thinks he was crucified the day before passover.

We can be more sure that the bible we do have is the original form then we can any other work from the period.

This includes Homer.

How close Homer is to the original isn't very important to anyone who doesn't believe Homer was divinely inspired.

[Ben Kenobi]

The Bible is internally inconsistent

How so?

so there's no reason to think it has a single author.

No one claims that there is only one author.

And even if the scriptures were originally written by a divine author, there's no reason to assume the version you have is their original form.

We can be more sure that the bible we do have is the original form then we can any other work from the period.

This includes Homer.

[Ben Kenobi]

So if Purgatory was only in the NT, does that mean it didn't exist before the NT per Catholic theology?

There are OT references as well. In Maccabees.

[Nikolai]

But when He created Satan, Satan was not evil. The fall came later. Important distinction.