Christianity ruins families.

[rah]

Yes religion is what you make of it.
The "best" human being that I know is not religious at all and a few of the "worst" claim to be religious.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Why are people talking about faith like it is a good thing?

"real" religion is based on personal experience, or lack thereof... the rest is "standard" religion which is belonging to a clan you were born in and that's that.

"real" religious personal expirience exists, in all religions I assume, and the results of that experience is what counts. It hopefully drives people to be "better" human beings, most religons agree on some basic moral principles, like "do not murder", "do not commit adultery" etc... which is good, but organizations created around such ideals/experiences/interpretations of life, inevitably become self-serving and the whole point of the "religion" is lost. Chosing among the "standard" religions is just like chosing among wines, they all have similar effect, and if you take too much - it is not good for you or those around you, a rational dose can improve your life considerably though.

[Ming]

Why are people talking about faith like it is a good thing?

Again... a matter of opinion

And I just noticed your signature... nice touch. I like it, and have updated mine. THANKS!

[DaShi]

Why are people talking about faith like it is a good thing?

[Ming]

Why should I place equal value on what someone else believes when I think they are wrong?

You are of course welcome to believe you are right and they are wrong, but don't doubt their level of faith or commitment, because it may be as strong if not stronger than yours. And don't be surprised if they think you are wrong, and don't place equal value on what you believe.

And I think I have good reasons to think that I am right and they are wrong.

You have NO good reasons beyond simple faith. No religion can prove they are more right than others beyond simple faith.

It isn't an opinion like "I like chocolate" or "dark chocolate is better than milk chocolate".

True enough... since it's a matter of spiritual belief in the unkown vs a matter of actual taste.

I do get religion, that is why the vast majority of religious people agree with my position and not yours.

True, if you group ALL christians together, they do make up the largest "religion"... but there are a lot of differences between the many christian sects.

And actually... the vast majority of people in the world disagree with your position. Many more people don't believe that Jesus was the son of God than actually do.

And again, you don't seem to get what I'm saying when you make a comment like "my position and not yours". Where have I ever said what God I believe in? All I've been saying is that it's all a matter of Faith, and that no religion has any more proof than another on whether they are the true religion or not, and that their supporters have equal or greater levels of faith as you do, and consider you to be wrong in your beliefs.

I at least respect them for their beliefs, even though I do disagree with them.
Because in the end, all we really have is faith.

[Nikolai]

So you cant show me where in Genesis it says God created the waters or the universe. I knew that, so why in the hell should I believe the Bible is the absolute truth when people cant even agree on what it says?

Genesis 1.1:

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

"Heavens" would be everything above the Earth, ie the universe. Look up in the sky, and you see stars, right?

The Earth would include all that is on it, right? Well, in verse 2 and then verse 6+7 and 9, we get water:

"Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."

"And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day."

And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.

So, in verse 2 we hear of "the surface of the deep", which is explained as "waters" in verse 6. Then we see that some water is held in the sky(rain) and some on the ground. Then comes verse 9 along, and we see that we've got land and seas.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Jon Miller

I mean religion is less like what food I like and more like backing a political party [ie, does anyone who is a strong member of a political party think that Sarah Palin and Barack Obama are equally correct or equally as good for the country?] (though religion is far more powerful). Everyone may believe that their faith is right and correct, but when it comes to religion, that belief, by definition, would exclude the equality of those who believe other things. Otherwise, why believe that religion? It's not the same as what do you like best.

[Jon Miller]

Gee... you still seem to be missing the whole point. You are the one being ridiculous. The true point is that EVERYBODY thinks the faith they believe in is the best. And they ALL have the same right to make that claim. NO religion has any proof that they are actually better than any other. And some of people's comments that their faith is better or stronger because they are one religion vs another is simply pure BS. Faith is not based on any specific relgion, but the level of personal commitment. Every relgion has follows that vary in their level of belief.



All religions are different... while most share similar attributes, they are indeed different. I have no clue what you are talking about when you say "equal/etc." I have said no such thing. I have said that people's faith in their belief can be as strong as somebodies elses, even though they do have different beliefs. And I've also said that people with strong beliefs think that people that don't believe like they do are wrong, or as some of done, placed a lower value on those alternative beliefs. And I've said that there is NO BASIS for them to do so. Because nobody has yet come up with a religion that can be proved more than other relgion... that strong believers of relgions are on equal footing with those of equal faith in other religions.



You don't seem to get religion... or I should say, any religion but your own.
You dismiss other people's beliefs, just like they dismiss yours in favor of their own. No religion has a higher moral ground than others. (I'm excluding true loons and death cults or other total wackos)

Why should I place equal value on what someone else believes when I think they are wrong?

And I think I have good reasons to think that I am right and they are wrong.

It isn't an opinion like "I like chocolate" or "dark chocolate is better than milk chocolate".

I do get religion, that is why the vast majority of religious people agree with my position and not yours.

JM

[Berzerker]

I explained that clearly. Are you stoned or something. The belief that Jesus Christ is subjective. The belief in everything the Bible says is subjected to. Why? Because I believe that the Bible is the word of God.

You said you "generally" accept the Bible then you called it the "absolute truth". You changed your opinion, that much is clear... So I asked what you meant by "generally", no answer yet. So how does all that mean your belief system aint subjective but mine is?

Where did you get the idea that I oppose science?

when you said everything in the Bible is the absolute truth

I was not aware that the assertion that there is no such thing as absolute truth was a scientific fact.

claiming you found it in a book is not science

I have no idea what you are on about. It's very clear to anyone who reads teh Bible that God created everything.

If you belief that God is Allmighty as Jesus said, then it does mean the you have to believe everything God says.

So you cant show me where in Genesis it says God created the waters or the universe. I knew that, so why in the hell should I believe the Bible is the absolute truth when people cant even agree on what it says?

What is the blueprint?

experts are reading it as we speak, its far more vast than the creation story in Genesis.

Look don't you think that if God wanted us to know him by studying the universe that it would be a lot easier and more revealing? What do you think the meaning of life is? Do you believe that it is coming to know God? If it is wouldn't God provide us a way to know him intimately?

I'd say the universe is more revealing than Genesis, thats why I dont believe the creator of it all gives a damn about sabbath laws, etc. I dont know what the meaning of life is but I'll go with life liberty and the pursuit of happiness until I got something better. But if God wants to know you or me intimately he doesn't need to have us kill his son.

Jesus Christ is not dead. He and the Father are one. The Christ sits at the right hand of God. Christ was there in the beginning and he will be there always.

So he didn't die for our sins? Who was Jesus talking to when he prayed?

being accused of subjectivity by a Bible thumper

[Ming]

If I thought that other faiths were better than mine, or as good as mine, I would be that other faith and not a Christian.

You are being ridiculous Ming.

Gee... you still seem to be missing the whole point. You are the one being ridiculous. The true point is that EVERYBODY thinks the faith they believe in is the best. And they ALL have the same right to make that claim. NO religion has any proof that they are actually better than any other. And some of people's comments that their faith is better or stronger because they are one religion vs another is simply pure BS. Faith is not based on any specific relgion, but the level of personal commitment. Every relgion has follows that vary in their level of belief.

If you want to think that all religions are equal/etc, then you can. But most religious people (excluding universalists/etc) will disagree. And actually, even univeralists will disagree, they just won't admit it as easily often.

All religions are different... while most share similar attributes, they are indeed different. I have no clue what you are talking about when you say "equal/etc." I have said no such thing. I have said that people's faith in their belief can be as strong as somebodies elses, even though they do have different beliefs. And I've also said that people with strong beliefs think that people that don't believe like they do are wrong, or as some of done, placed a lower value on those alternative beliefs. And I've said that there is NO BASIS for them to do so. Because nobody has yet come up with a religion that can be proved more than other relgion... that strong believers of relgions are on equal footing with those of equal faith in other religions.

You don't get religion. We understand.
JM

You don't seem to get religion... or I should say, any religion but your own.
You dismiss other people's beliefs, just like they dismiss yours in favor of their own. No religion has a higher moral ground than others. (I'm excluding true loons and death cults or other total wackos)

[Jon Miller]

If I thought that other faiths were better than mine, or as good as mine, I would be that other faith and not a Christian.

You are being ridiculous Ming.

If you want to think that all religions are equal/etc, then you can. But most religious people (excluding universalists/etc) will disagree. And actually, even univeralists will disagree, they just won't admit it as easily often.

You don't get religion. We understand.

JM

[Ming]

While that factually is right, it means nothing.
Christianity isn't right because more christians are killed then muslims.

Factually? On what are you basing the comparison for persecution. Is it actual deaths, or something else. Please provide some real details to support this persecution.

Eventhough I agree with you here (a religion should be judged on the value of it's message. not on the beauty of it's book, the number of followers or the beauty of their songs, you on the other hand get over the top on the other side. You are getting angry for people expressing their believe that something is what they believe it is.

Why am I over the top... and since when did I ever say people can't express what they believe in. I do get angry when I see people use their supposed religion to infringe on the rights of others and think they are above the laws of man. Doesn't that make you angry?

As far as I can see there are 6 possible options:
1. one vision on life is true. (ie. Islam)
2. some visions on life, that do not exclude each other, are true. (ie. Buddhism and Confucianism)
3. All visions on life are true because the truth doesn't matter.
4. We can't know which vision on life is true, all should do whatever pleases them most
5. None of the visions on life is true, it's the one we are all ignorant about that's true
6. No vision on life is true

Your opinion is just another opinion. It naturally conflicts with #1 and partly with #2. (and can be combined with #3, #5 and #6)

The idea that it's useless that one proclaims his own faith as the truth is only an opinion. It's an opinion in a differeng league. Muslims/Christians/Jews compete within league #1 (and some in #2 and #3). You're in league #4. The fact that you're in league #4 (just a number, not a hierarchy) doesn't mean that your opinion is superior

First.. you have no clue what I actually believe... and second, what's your point. Nobody can claim that their opinion is superior. And that's the whole point. But the truth of the matter is, I haven't seen anybody yet post a single reason or fact why their religion is better, or should be considered better or more true than any other... yet the claims of superiority continue.

Maybe some have better proof, but people are ignorant about it, or refuse to accept it.

Proof... it's all myths at best. There are no proofs. You use the term "ignorant"... and refuse to accept "it"... like somebody is ignoring that 2 plus 2 = 4. In reality, the whole basis of religion is simply faith... faith in something that has never been proven. One might argue that somebody who believes in ancient myths and superstition is the ignorant one

I refuse to believe that all religions are equal. Buddhism, in example, has a very very rational and sane vision on life, from an atheistic perspective.
I'm not a buddhist, but I do respect buddhism for taking the right conclusions from their starting point.
Islam, in example, is imho a less sane religion, constructed out of bits of other religions, more based on the ignorance of it's founder and his anger with the followers of those other faiths, then based on a unique vision on life.
Old pagan faiths, where the thunder is a god, and the gods live on the mountains of olympia are just faiths of the gaps.
But religions like confucianism or taoism are about bringing social order and structures in societies. They have factual advantages.

Simply your opinion... many people think Chrisitianity is an insane relgiion.
Whose opinion is worth more?
It's no surprise you want to support your own relgion and claim it's the best.
But again, the whole point I'm trying to make is that everybody feels the same about their own relgions and beliefs. That their faith is as strong if not stronger than yours. You seem to want to belittle other faiths for no other reason than it's not yours... yet ignore the fact that it's simply opinon and that you have NOTHING to support your own claims of superiority beyond your personal beliefs.

I disagree with the idea that all religions are different branches of the same product.
Like you buy coca cola or pepsi cola. no, some religions are like cars while others are like a day to a spa. Uncomparable. And some have a heigher quality then others.

There you go making value judgements about other people's beliefs again.
You are trying to dismiss other people's beliefs and not as good as your own.

As with all visions on life. Facism, communism, socialism, liberalism, nationalism, anarchism, etc. etc. They're all visoins on life and society. But not all are equal in quality or result.

Comparing the above to relgions... not even close

[Jon Miller]

There are very good reasons to have faith in Christianity versus other religions. Recent books that I have read that provided some interesting perspectives on this question were Mere Christianity and Physicist and Christian: A dialogue of communities

JM

[Fake Boris]

Kid, you were a joke all those years?

[Robert]

Finally, Christianity is the most persecuted of any religion.

While that factually is right, it means nothing.
Christianity isn't right because more christians are killed then muslims.

Ming: Gee... what a surprise that you would feel that way. People of other religions feel their scriptures are the best of any religion... so what's your point?

Eventhough I agree with you here (a religion should be judged on the value of it's message. not on the beauty of it's book, the number of followers or the beauty of their songs, you on the other hand get over the top on the other side. You are getting angry for people expressing their believe that something is what they believe it is.

As far as I can see there are 6 possible options:
1. one vision on life is true. (ie. Islam)
2. some visions on life, that do not exclude each other, are true. (ie. Buddhism and Confucianism)
3. All visions on life are true because the truth doesn't matter.
4. We can't know which vision on life is true, all should do whatever pleases them most
5. None of the visions on life is true, it's the one we are all ignorant about that's true
6. No vision on life is true

You, Ming, are just part of group #4 while many believers are in group #1 or #2 (and some in group #3).
Your opinion is just another opinion. It naturally conflicts with #1 and partly with #2. (and can be combined with #3, #5 and #6)

The idea that it's useless that one proclaims his own faith as the truth is only an opinion. It's an opinion in a differeng league. Muslims/Christians/Jews compete within league #1 (and some in #2 and #3). You're in league #4. The fact that you're in league #4 (just a number, not a hierarchy) doesn't mean that your opinion is superior

no religion has any better proof than any other.

Maybe some have better proof, but people are ignorant about it, or refuse to accept it.
I refuse to believe that all religions are equal. Buddhism, in example, has a very very rational and sane vision on life, from an atheistic perspective.
I'm not a buddhist, but I do respect buddhism for taking the right conclusions from their starting point.
Islam, in example, is imho a less sane religion, constructed out of bits of other religions, more based on the ignorance of it's founder and his anger with the followers of those other faiths, then based on a unique vision on life.
Old pagan faiths, where the thunder is a god, and the gods live on the mountains of olympia are just faiths of the gaps.
But religions like confucianism or taoism are about bringing social order and structures in societies. They have factual advantages.

I disagree with the idea that all religions are different branches of the same product.
Like you buy coca cola or pepsi cola. no, some religions are like cars while others are like a day to a spa. Uncomparable. And some have a heigher quality then others.
As with all visions on life. Facism, communism, socialism, liberalism, nationalism, anarchism, etc. etc. They're all visoins on life and society. But not all are equal in quality or result.