Christianity ruins families.

[Ben Kenobi]

You expect me to believe you understand Greek?

It's right there, look it up yourself if you don't believe me. The term referring to 'special sabbath' or 'high day' is not present in the greek. All the greek says is that there was a sabbath.

I've looked at several translations and they all think it was a "special sabbath" or a "high day".

Again, it's an interpolation. It's not there in the original.

[Nikolai]

This sabbath was and is special. As a sabbath, it's placed on a saturday though. Sabbaths are not moving throughout the weekdays.

[giblets]

It's right there, look it up yourself if you don't believe me. The term referring to 'special sabbath' or 'high day' is not present in the greek. All the greek says is that there was a sabbath.



Again, it's an interpolation. It's not there in the original.

If it isn't really there... find me a translation that doesn't have it.

[Nikolai]

I can't speak Greek, and I'm not well versed in the theme of this discussion. But I did a search on the net, and got an introduction where a guy goes through the whole thing. Note: I can't say for sure if all he says is right, I'll let others be the judge of that, but he does give an explanation on the topic.

Now, for the details, you need to check url=http://www.biblebell.org/threedays.html]this[/url] page. Here's the conclusion:

FAITH!

Jesus was crucified on Wednesday, Passover Day, Nisan 14th.

He was entombed Wednesday evening. He was in the heart of the earth...

* Wednesday night (Night 1)
* Thursday (Day 1- a special Sabbath)
* Thursday night (Night 2)
* Friday (Day 2)
* Friday night (Night 3)
* Saturday (Day 3 - the weekly Sabbath).

The Lord Jesus Christ was resurrected at twilight on Saturday...
at the instant Saturday died,
and the instant Sunday was born.

[Ben Kenobi]

If it isn't really there... find me a translation that doesn't have it.

The original doesn't have it.

[Ben Kenobi]

I can't speak Greek, and I'm not well versed in the theme of this discussion. But I did a search on the net, and got an introduction where a guy goes through the whole thing. Note: I can't say for sure if all he says is right, I'll let others be the judge of that, but he does give an explanation on the topic.

He's wrong. It's always been understood that Christ was crucified on a Friday.

If we go through the history, Good Friday has been celebrated since the time of the Apostles.

[Berzerker]

wow, you guys are actually having a Bible debate I wont jump into

But I will say this, I dont get the "logic" behind Christianity. God took human form and suffered a cruel fate because of our sins? First, thats a collective mentality - a small group of people did that to him. They hardly represent humanity... But if God created existence, God created sin - not us. So, Jesus didn't die for our sins, God died for creating sin and putting us in its midst.

I'm thinking of the analogy of God our Father and the seed not falling far from the tree

I swear, when you read the OT, God dont strike me as some paragon of morality. I'd say much of humanity has succeeded in surpassing Him in that dept. And that for me shoots down most religions right there...

On the other hand, if there is a creator to the universe, then we got the same problem. My head is hurting, I just figured out the God I sorta believe in is basically no different than these Gods from our ancestors.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Well, if God gave us free will, then while He technically created sin (as He created everything), we decided to go down that path instead of being good. So the washing of away of sin by the Crucifixion is because of our choices.

[giblets]

The original doesn't have it.

According to whom? There seems to be a consensus among translations of the Bible. If it were not there, I imagine at least a few translators would not have altered the Bible in a way that makes it contradict itself.

[Berzerker]

Well, if God gave us free will, then while He technically created sin (as He created everything), we decided to go down that path instead of being good. So the washing of away of sin by the Crucifixion is because of our choices.

But that was God's choice, and free will is not evil anyway (might be sinful ) but eg murdering people aint about free will, the victims are being deprived of theirs. By "sin" I'm referring more to sins that are crimes as well, not petty stuff like laboring on the Sabbath etc. But if God did give us free will, we are no longer obliged to obey God. But then we're told we are obliged, so what happened to free will?

I just cant buy into this notion that God made everything but aint responsible for anything... It makes more "sense" to me that God came down and took human form and suffered the worst of fates for creating a world with sin. God joined us on the Cross, and I dont think Jesus died for our sins - in the Lord's Prayer, Jesus tells his followers to ask God to forgive their trespasses as they forgive others - why bother if our sins are no longer held against us?

[Imran Siddiqui]

But if God did give us free will, we are no longer obliged to obey God. But then we're told we are obliged, so what happened to free will?

Well we are no long obliged to obey God. However, if we want (in the vast majority opinion of Christianity) to have pleasant life after death you are, but that's your choice in the end.

Jesus tells his followers to ask God to forgive their trespasses as they forgive others - why bother if our sins are no longer held against us?

Basically (majority Christian view), your sins aren't held against you if you accept God. And part of that is if you actually accept God, rather than just saying so, you want to obey Him and please Him as a lover will do (and for some, like the Catholics and Orthodox, merely accepting God isn't enough, you have to obey him as well).

[Berzerker]

frankly we wouldn't be that entertaining without free will. God dont settle for The Sims (I was watching Through the Wormhole)

But that majority view appears to me to be in conflict with the Lord's Prayer. Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive others... sounds kinda like a requirement. Why will God forgive us if we refuse to forgive others? And if thats the case, our "salvation" aint a sure thing. Jesus didn't die for our sins, maybe Jesus died to show us a path, albeit rather narrow. Course the Christian argument here is that real Christians will forgive others, etc ie behave Christ-like so it aint really a requirement, it'll come natural to the real Christian. And that does make sense... I guess this is the old deeds vs faith argument, if you really have the faith, the deeds will flow unimpeded. Aint many people like that, but I have met a few I think.

[Ben Kenobi]

Well, if God gave us free will, then while He technically created sin (as He created everything), we decided to go down that path instead of being good. So the washing of away of sin by the Crucifixion is because of our choices.

Not quite right. He created free will, and with it, the capacity for sin. Sin came into the world with Adam.

your sins aren't held against you if you accept God

Sins, whether committed before or after you accept Christ separate you from God. So they are 'held against you', in the sense that they pull you away from God.

[Berzerker]

He created free will, and with it, the capacity for sin. Sin came into the world with Adam.

actually sin came into the world with the first prohibition law

but where did evil come from? That aint free will... If you murder someone, you've taken away their free will.

[Ben Kenobi]

That's a good question. I would say that evil came from people themselves, choosing to do what is wrong.

I didn't think any libertarians believed that man was intrinsically good.