Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Philly says Boy Scouts have to accept gays

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Philly says Boy Scouts have to accept gays



    PHILADELPHIA – City lawyers called on local Boy Scout officials to muster "the courage of their convictions" and challenge their national group's ban on gays as a trial over government funding opened Tuesday.

    The city of Philadelphia wants to end its $1-a-year lease to the local Boy Scouts chapter unless it rejects a Boy Scouts of America policy banning "avowed" gays. The city says the national rule violates a local law banning discrimination on sexual-orientation and other grounds.

    Local scout chapters, including the Cradle of Liberty Council in Philadelphia, have struggled in recent years to satisfy both public and private funders as well as their national leadership's dictums. The Boy Scout oath calls for members to be "morally straight," which the national group interprets to mean that gays cannot participate.

    In 2004, the Philadelphia chapter agreed to ban any "unlawful" discrimination. But the city said the policy didn't go far enough, given that the U.S. Supreme Court in 2000 had said scouts and other private organizations can legally restrict membership.

    "The city tried for years to get them to (muster) ... the courage of their convictions," lawyer David Smith, representing the city, told jurors Monday in opening statements. "You can't go on speaking out of both sides of your mouth because we, the government, cannot subsidize that kind of conduct.
    "
    The Cradle of Liberty Council sued the city in federal court two years ago, on grounds the threat to rescind the 1928 lease violated its rights of free speech and freedom of association.
    Chapter leaders also accuse the city of applying its lease rules selectively, since at least two other groups with limited membership rules — a Roman Catholic parish and a Colonial Dames of America chapter — also enjoy subsidized leases in city-owned buildings. Smith countered that those groups pledged to open the doors of those buildings to all.


    "They want us to change the policy and they know they can't make us do it. And the only leverage they have is this building," said lawyer Jason Gosselin, representing the Cradle of Liberty Council.

    He did not shy away from the tension that has surrounded Boy Scouts since the 2000 Supreme Court decision.

    Lead-off witness William T. Dwyer III, the now-retired director of the Philadelphia council, was expected to recount the challenges he faced.
    "He's going to talk to you about how he tried to walk that fine line," Gosselin told the diverse two-man, six-woman jury. "His focus all this time was the 75,000 kids who relied on these programs."

    The Cradle of Liberty Council serves boys — and also girls in some of its programs — in Philadelphia and its suburbs.

    The council under Dwyer never discussed anyone's sexual orientation, Gosselin said. If boys brought it up, they were told to discuss it with their parents or clergy, he said.

    But that apparent "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" approach no longer held in the wake of the 2000 Supreme Court decision, as funders and activists debated the national policy. In one case that drew headlines, the Cradle of Liberty Council forced out 18-year-old Eagle Scout Greg Lattera after he went on TV — in his scout uniform — to declare that he was gay.

    "It's because he wore his uniform and advanced his own agenda at the expense of the Boy Scouts. That's why he was asked to leave," Gosselin said Tuesday.

    Lattera is expected to testify for the city, which argues that the Boy Scouts have no inherent right to the sweetheart lease, even though they raised the funds to build the stately Beaux Arts building on the city site nearly a century ago. The fair-market rent is now about $200,000 a year, the city said.

    The local council's dilemma, Smith said, stems from it "giving in to heavy-handed coercion by the Boy Scouts of America" to force it to follow the national group's views.
    Thoughts? The city reneging on the established contract might make this problematic.
    "Flutie was better than Kelly, Elway, Esiason and Cunningham." - Ben Kenobi
    "I have nothing against Wilson, but he's nowhere near the same calibre of QB as Flutie. Flutie threw for 5k+ yards in the CFL." -Ben Kenobi

  • #2
    But the city said the policy didn't go far enough, given that the U.S. Supreme Court in 2000 had said scouts and other private organizations can legally restrict membership.
    Freedom of Association.

    The boy scouts built the building, and rather then having to pay the upkeep, agreed to sell it back to Philly, in exchange for the 1 dollar lease.

    Philly should compensate the boy scouts for the building, if they wish to cancel the contract. Otherwise, they need to leave them alone.
    Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
    "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
    2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Ben Kenobi View Post
      Freedom of Association.

      The boy scouts built the building, and rather then having to pay the upkeep, agreed to sell it back to Philly, in exchange for the 1 dollar lease.

      Philly should compensate the boy scouts for the building, if they wish to cancel the contract. Otherwise, they need to leave them alone.
      Freedom of association doesn't entitle you to local government subsidies. Pay your damn rent and associate as you please. As for the contract, what I've seen is that the land is owned by the city and leased for $1, not the building. Where are you seeing the description you gave?
      Solomwi is very wise. - Imran Siddiqui

      Comment


      • #4
        Freedom of association doesn't entitle you to local government subsidies.
        Legally, it means that the boy scouts can't be forced to admit gay people, and the government cannot force them to do so.

        Pay your damn rent and associate as you please. As for the contract, what I've seen is that the land is owned by the city and leased for $1, not the building. Where are you seeing the description you gave?
        No, they sold the building in exchange for the perpetual lease. If the city council wants to break the contract now, they need to compensate the boy scouts for the 2010 value of the building. Easily in the multi-eight figures.

        Sucks for the Philly council, but perpetual leases are perpetual leases.

        The Boy Scouts erected the ornate building and since 1928 have leased the land from the city for a token sum of $1 a year.
        Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
        "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
        2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

        Comment


        • #5
          1. Altering the terms of the lease dne forcing the Scouts to admit gays. It's the Scouts attempting to force the city to continue subsidizing discriminatory, albeit perfectly constitutional, Scout policy.

          2. That article doesn't describe what you claim it does. Shocking, that.

          3. There is plenty of precedent supporting the city's ability to end or alter a perpetual lease, especially given changed circumstances which have made the perpetuation of the lease illegal.

          4. It's not at all clear that, if the city evicted the Scouts, it would have to pay them for the building.
          Solomwi is very wise. - Imran Siddiqui

          Comment


          • #6
            Solomwi

            Why is it that some so called conservatives have no problems with big government sponsorship of things they like.
            “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
            - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui View Post
              Solomwi

              Why is it that some so called conservatives have no problems with big government sponsorship of things they like.
              "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
              Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

              Comment


              • #8
                1. Altering the terms of the lease and forcing the Scouts to admit gays. It's the Scouts attempting to force the city to continue subsidizing discriminatory, albeit perfectly constitutional, Scout policy.
                Actually, no. The Scouts haven't changed anything. Philly city council is attempting to ram their recent 'non discrimination' clause down their throat in violation of their freedom of assembly.

                2. That article doesn't describe what you claim it does. Shocking, that.
                It says that the scouts built the building in the first place.

                3. There is plenty of precedent supporting the city's ability to end or alter a perpetual lease, especially given changed circumstances which have made the perpetuation of the lease illegal.
                The city council changed their own policies. This is no different then them breaking the lease themselves. You make it sound that something from outside forced them to change their laws. Not the case.

                Anyways, the best solution for everyone is for the philly council to pay the scouts for the building, at it's 2010 value, and abrogate the lease.

                4. It's not at all clear that, if the city evicted the Scouts, it would have to pay them for the building
                If the Philly city council wishes to go to court, that will be decided.

                Really, I suspect that litigation will be far more expensive than the value of the building in the end.

                Or Philly could be honourable. Two paths. One has a certain loss, and one has an uncertain loss of far more.
                Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Why is it that some so called conservatives have no problems with big government sponsorship of things they like.
                  How is it 'big govenment' to argue that when the state breaks their own contracts that the parties should be compensated according to fair market value?

                  "Big government supporters' all support that the government owns everything and can take whatever it wants without compensation.

                  Arguing that they should pay market value is a limitation and a restriction on the government. Do I need to bring up how Kelo is a massive expansion of government powers?
                  Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                  "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                  2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ben Kenobi View Post
                    How is it 'big govenment' to argue that when the state breaks their own contracts that the parties should be compensated according to fair market value?
                    It's big government because you want the government to subsidize private organizations.
                    "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                    Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      How is the private organisation being subsidised? Did they not agree to give the Philly council the building?
                      Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                      "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                      2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Ben Kenobi View Post
                        How is the private organisation being subsidised? Did they not agree to give the Philly council the building?
                        Defending the lease. A $1 lease obviously does not reflect the fair market value of the lot.
                        "The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
                        Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Yes it does asher, in fact it is overpriced. Philly sucks, haven't you heard?
                          If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
                          ){ :|:& };:

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Is it fair compensation for the building?

                            Either way, the Philly council has to abide by the terms of their contract. It's not like the scouts held up a gun to the Philly council and forced them to buy the building.
                            Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
                            "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
                            2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Hauldren Collider View Post
                              Yes it does asher, in fact it is overpriced. Philly sucks, haven't you heard?
                              Market value rent is $200K a year

                              The Boy Scouts of America have reached an agreement with attorneys representing some 60,000 victims of child sex abuse in what could prove to be a pivotal moment in the organization’s bankruptcy case.


                              Have you ever been to Philly, HC?
                              "Flutie was better than Kelly, Elway, Esiason and Cunningham." - Ben Kenobi
                              "I have nothing against Wilson, but he's nowhere near the same calibre of QB as Flutie. Flutie threw for 5k+ yards in the CFL." -Ben Kenobi

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X