What does modern Israel have in common with 1950's Alabama?

[Kuciwalker]

So you want to talk about gassing ethnic groups now?

I was mocking him, idiot.

[notyoueither]

On the first one you might be right. The second one I call BS. As long as the palestinians have a common external oppressor, it won't matter how bad hamas is to them. Israel will always be the enemy.

And collective punishment only works if all parties involved agree to it in some way (i.e. you signed on a contract when joining the army fully knowing what was awaiting you). I bet you if you would be born in Gaza you would hate the Israelis as well, not because of ethnics, but becuse they are the ones oppressing you.

Hamas may lose support when people in Gaza compare notes with people living in the West Bank.

[Al B. Sure!]

I was mocking him, idiot.

Good. Do you listen to music, Kuci?

[dannubis]

Not as long it is israel who can be blamed directly

[C0ckney]

How does that compare to what was done to Iraq under UN auspices?

so what is you point, that because people suffered greatly in iraq under sanctions it's ok that people are suffering greatly now in gaza under the israeli blockade?

[notyoueither]

Not as long it is israel who can be blamed directly

I do recall reading that Hamas was losing support, or something to that effect.

I'm not really wanting to go looking through hundreds of links about this **** storm to find the reference though.

[Kuciwalker]

Good. Do you listen to music, Kuci?

The only thing I do for entertainment is play civ, post on Apolyton, and write math proofs.

[Al B. Sure!]

The only thing I do for entertainment is play civ, post on Apolyton, and write math proofs.

Don't forget Tales of Vesperia!

[C0ckney]

fair play that was quite good kuci

[notyoueither]

so what is you point, that because people suffered greatly in iraq under sanctions it's ok that people are suffering greatly now in gaza under the israeli blockade?

That what Israel is doing is in accord with international standards, and in fact they are inflicting less suffering on Gazans than the international community inflicted on Iraqis.

Also, keep in mind that Israel is not alone in their reaction to Hamas running Gaza. Egypt has their own closed border (blockade).

[Mortabis]

Hamas may lose support when people in Gaza compare notes with people living in the West Bank.

QFT

Note how Israel doesn't stop goods from entering the West Bank. Now, why might that be? Let me give you a hint: It's not because they're less Arab.

The West Bank is altogether much more peaceful than the Gaza Strip, didn't elect a terrorist organization for a government (which in my eyes destroys every sliver of credibility of its people and makes total war legitimate), doesn't routinely fire missiles into Israeli population centers...

Hmm.

Maybe if the Gaza Strip were like that, there wouldn't be a blockade?

Maybe the Gazans, therefore, can bear the responsibility for a blockade being imposed on them, and not the Israelis, who are just trying to stop the murder of children in Sderot?

Maybe when you react with overwhelming force people learn to stop being provocative?

Maybe Gaza will eventually stop being a hotbed for violence, the blockade will end, and a disgusting chapter in this conflict will close?

But on the other hand, maybe if this blockade is ended, missiles will flood into Gaza from Hamas' puppeteers in Iran and Israel will be forced to invade like they did in Operation Cast Lead back in late 2008?

Maybe that would be a really bad thing too...

Food for thought.

[C0ckney]

nye, well there's a few issues here, for example the legal and politician positions of iraq and gaza are different. the sanctions in iraq were backed by the UN security council resolutions and had the political backing of the international community at large. the blockade of gaza does not have similar backing, indeed quite the opposite. this to my mind is not the main issue though.

it's worth remembering that nearly 15 years of sanctions against iraq did not bring down saddam's regime, indeed it boosted its domestic support by fostering a siege mentaliy. it took an invasion to remove saddam. you might argue that it weakened saddam militarily, which made the invasion of 2003 easier, but given the performance of the iraqi military in gulf war, this hardly seems important. the major impact of the blockade was felt by the ordinary people of iraq, and they suffered and died for it.

similarly, the israeli blockade will not bring down hamas, it may make them weaker militarily, but then hamas could not stand toe to toe with israel in a straight fight before the blockade, so this is not very important. it will foster the same siege mentality and hatred of the oppressor, which will make a peaceful solution more difficult in the long term. the main effect, as the article i posted points out is to reduce the civilian population to hunger, misery and poverty.

i do not see a blockade of this kind to be moral, because is it ineffective in achieving its stated aims (as we saw in iraq) and because it is the ordinary civilian population who suffer and die as a result.

[C0ckney]

also, eygpt has opened its border with gaza in response to this incident.

[DaShi]

Maybe if Gaza was a nicer place to live, people would be less inclined to launch missiles at you.

[Solomwi]

QFT

Note how Israel doesn't stop goods from entering the West Bank. Now, why might that be? Let me give you a hint: It's not because they're less Arab.

The West Bank is altogether much more peaceful than the Gaza Strip, didn't elect a terrorist organization for a government (which in my eyes destroys every sliver of credibility of its people and makes total war legitimate), doesn't routinely fire missiles into Israeli population centers...

Hmm.

Maybe if the Gaza Strip were like that, there wouldn't be a blockade?

Maybe the Gazans, therefore, can bear the responsibility for a blockade being imposed on them, and not the Israelis, who are just trying to stop the murder of children in Sderot?

Maybe when you react with overwhelming force people learn to stop being provocative?

Maybe Gaza will eventually stop being a hotbed for violence, the blockade will end, and a disgusting chapter in this conflict will close?

But on the other hand, maybe if this blockade is ended, missiles will flood into Gaza from Hamas' puppeteers in Iran and Israel will be forced to invade like they did in Operation Cast Lead back in late 2008?

Maybe that would be a really bad thing too...

Food for thought.

Well, if they kept goods out of the West Bank, how would all the illegal settlements they've been spreading survive?