What does modern Israel have in common with 1950's Alabama?

[Mortabis]

[C0ckney]

ah, so you're one of those

now it makes sense.

[Imran Siddiqui]

yeah it's certainly working to keep the palestinians of gaza hungry, in poverty, without the ability to build homes, schools and hospitals or have any economic development, or hope for the future. if that's what you mean by working.

And, of course, none of that is state terrorism...

[Hauldren Collider]

@ mortabis

[Imran Siddiqui]

The West Bank is altogether much more peaceful than the Gaza Strip, didn't elect a terrorist organization for a government (which in my eyes destroys every sliver of credibility of its people and makes total war legitimate), doesn't routinely fire missiles into Israeli population centers...

I like the double talk. Weren't you one of the group who called Yassir Arafat a terrorist? And wasn't he elected by the West Bank?

[C0ckney]

And, of course, none of that is state terrorism...

don't be silly, only the ayrabs and other muslimes are capable of terrorism.

[Hauldren Collider]

Mortabis is the single biggest threat to my argument's credibility

[Mortabis]

**** I didn't see the obama thing in the second picture, goddamn.

First one is still good though.

[notyoueither]

nye, well there's a few issues here, for example the legal and politician positions of iraq and gaza are different. the sanctions in iraq were backed by the UN security council resolutions and had the political backing of the international community at large. the blockade of gaza does not have similar backing, indeed quite the opposite. this to my mind is not the main issue though.

This is a major issue to me. Blockades are a centuries old practice that are employed by sovereign states and do not (or should not) require the approval of the UN, or wider public opinion, to be legitimate.

It is not clear to me that Israel is in the wrong in implementing a blockade against a territory that is ruled by an organization which lists as a significant goal the destruction of Israel and which carries out attacks on Israeli civilians.

it's worth remembering that nearly 15 years of sanctions against iraq did not bring down saddam's regime, indeed it boosted its domestic support by fostering a siege mentaliy. it took an invasion to remove saddam. you might argue that it weakened saddam militarily, which made the invasion of 2003 easier, but given the performance of the iraqi military in gulf war, this hardly seems important. the major impact of the blockade was felt by the ordinary people of iraq, and they suffered and died for it.

similarly, the israeli blockade will not bring down hamas, it may make them weaker militarily, but then hamas could not stand toe to toe with israel in a straight fight before the blockade, so this is not very important. it will foster the same siege mentality and hatred of the oppressor, which will make a peaceful solution more difficult in the long term. the main effect, as the article i posted points out is to reduce the civilian population to hunger, misery and poverty.

I don't think Iraq had elections that could in any way be described as free.

It might be expected that Hamas will have to face the polls at some time, and there may be credible alternatives for Palestinians to vote for.

In the mean time, Hamas could go a long way towards ending the blockade themselves. According to wiki, Israel is looking for them to renounce violence, recognise Israel, and honour previous agreements between Israel and Palestinian representatives. Would that be too large a burden?

i do not see a blockade of this kind to be moral, because is it ineffective in achieving its stated aims (as we saw in iraq) and because it is the ordinary civilian population who suffer and die as a result.

I disagree.

Blockading a territory ruled by a group sworn to destruction is not immoral. In fact, the Israeli blockade has to be among the most humane ever implemented. Seriously, how much food from South America did the RN allow through to German ports in either go? How many have starved to death in Gaza?

It would be very easy for Hamas to end the blockade. It is completely within their power. Accept that Israel exists and will continue to exist, and agree to live peacefully. Alternatively, the people of Gaza could dispose of Hamas at the polls when given the opportunity. The blockade will end.

[notyoueither]

also, eygpt has opened its border with gaza in response to this incident.

Yes, however they had closed it in reaction to Hamas taking control. That is the point. Even an Arab state thought that Gaza under Hamas should be cut off.

Also, the border is not wide open AFAIK, and it remains to be seen how long it will remain open.

[Az]

**** I didn't see the obama thing in the second picture, goddamn.

First one is still good though.

Hi, new poster. Get out.

you've actiually managed to post worse than mobius in an I/P thread, which is saying a lot.

[Al B. Sure!]

What's wrong, Azazel? He's too real for you?

[DaShi]

Mortabis finally gives us an accurate view of how the Israeli's see the situation.

[Hauldren Collider]

I think Az probably gives a better view given that he (if his profile is to be believed) is actually Israeli.

[C0ckney]

This is a major issue to me. Blockades are a centuries old practice that are employed by sovereign states and do not (or should not) require the approval of the UN, or wider public opinion, to be legitimate.

It is not clear to me that Israel is in the wrong in implementing a blockade against a territory that is ruled by an organization which lists as a significant goal the destruction of Israel and which carries out attacks on Israeli civilians.

well the world has changed rather a lot in that time and i disagree with you that UN backing or international opinion are not important considerations when it comes to sanctions and blockades. iraq was a sovereign state, whereas gaza is a disputed terrority which has been under israeli occupation. although as i said before, i am more concerned about the humanitarian aspect than the legal niceties.

I don't think Iraq had elections that could in any way be described as free.

It might be expected that Hamas will have to face the polls at some time, and there may be credible alternatives for Palestinians to vote for.

whether iraq had elections or not is completely irrelevant. the UN and international community knew that they didn't have elections when they imposed the sanctions, one of the aims of which was to weaken the regime of saddam hussein. the sanctions failed to do this, they in fact achieved the reverse. the people who suffered were the ordinary civilians.

the same thing is happening now in gaza. it's not hamas who are suffering, but the ordinary civilians. people are barely subsisting, 80% rely on food aid, unemployment is approaching 40%, there is little healthcare, children aren't being educated, there is no economic development. please tell me how much worse do things have to get before someone replaces hamas? if there is some evidence that the blockade is weakening hamas' grip on power, then i would like to see it. so far there is a lot of talk about the blockade doing so but no evidence offered. the example of history and simple common sense will tell you what happens when people are under siege.

Blockading a territory ruled by a group sworn to destruction is not immoral. In fact, the Israeli blockade has to be among the most humane ever implemented. Seriously, how much food from South America did the RN allow through to German ports in either go? How many have starved to death in Gaza?

yes please continue to argue that israel is being humane here...

In the mean time, Hamas could go a long way towards ending the blockade themselves. According to wiki, Israel is looking for them to renounce violence, recognise Israel, and honour previous agreements between Israel and Palestinian representatives. Would that be too large a burden?

It would be very easy for Hamas to end the blockade. It is completely within their power. Accept that Israel exists and will continue to exist, and agree to live peacefully. Alternatively, the people of Gaza could dispose of Hamas at the polls when given the opportunity. The blockade will end.

well i am in total agreement with you that hamas ought to recognise israel and renounce violence and start to work towards a peaceful future. it begs the question, with the the situation as bad as it is in gaza why aren't they doing this? well, rather obviously, it's because the blockade is not hurting them, it is hurting the ordinary people of gaza, which the point i've been trying to make. it's a collective punishment of 1.5 million people for the actions of a few. it's both inhumane and counterproductive.

do you think the blockade is working? do you think it is likely to bring about the outcomes which israel wants, and if so, why has it not so far?