What does modern Israel have in common with 1950's Alabama?

[Kuciwalker]

At a trial, is it not GUILTY or NOT GUILTY?

I suppose there's also mistrials. I'm sure you'll bring that up.

Oh, the jury verdict is the same thing as genuinely having violated the law?

I'm fascinated to learn that our juries never make errors, and that all laws have a single, provable meaning.

But you don't think there's any substantial risk to the condoning of the ignoring of territorial seas in terms of boarding neutral vessels?

When such vessels have declared their intent and are on course to enter a country's territory, there is very little harm in letting that country stop them outside the border rather than just inside it.

I'm worried about the precedent.

Due to your own ignorance.

[Hauldren Collider]

The concern about the arabs getting nukes is that the governments of Iran, Libya, Syria etc might be stupid/crazy enough to actually use them.

[C0ckney]

Maybe you missed the original discussion, but my position is that the killings [and, possible, the blockade] are horrible, but would have been just as horrible had Israel stopped the ship in its own waters.

i was aware of your position and my post wasn't directed at you specifically, because Lord knows i don't want to get in the middle of you and asher. i was simply pointing out that it's not just american or european opinion that has been affected by this.

[Kuciwalker]

They keep arabs from getting nukes, along with other stuff but really I think that's enough of a justification.

If we weren't allied with Israel they wouldn't stop, and if Israel didn't have nukes the Arabs probably wouldn't be trying.

Knowing you, you will find the above sentence incredibly distressing and anti-Israel, but I don't think you can actually say it's not true.

[Hauldren Collider]

I'm not so sure you're right about that Kuci. I think the Arabs would hate us even if we weren't allied with Israel.

And there's no objective right answer to this, and we can't prove each other wrong with facts, so debating that particular point further probably isn't going to be helpful.

EDIT: If we didn't help Israel, israel would have been toast ages ago, so yes they would have stopped.

[Asher]

The concern about the arabs getting nukes is that the governments of Iran, Libya, Syria etc might be stupid/crazy enough to actually use them.

I don't see them as any more likely to use them as the US would.

It's in no one's interest to use them, because you'll get nuked in the process. The unfortunate part is thanks to the US/USSR precedent, having nukes essentially means you get promoted to the grown-up table for world discussion. That's why they want them.

[Hauldren Collider]

Assuming you are correct Asher, in that case the US wants to keep them out of the grown up table, and Israel helps us do that. I think that means they qualify as a strategic ally.

[Asher]

Oh, the jury verdict is the same thing as genuinely having violated the law?

How else does one determine if you genuinely violated a law without a court of law?

I'm fascinated to learn that our juries never make errors, and that all laws have a single, provable meaning.

I'm fascinated to learn how we determine who genuinely violates the law without a jury or a court.

Do(sic) to your own ignorance.

Yes, my ignorance is what worries about the precedent of permitting world powers to violate international law due to their perceived notion of the outcome.

[Asher]

Assuming you are correct Asher, in that case the US wants to keep them out of the grown up table, and Israel helps us do that. I think that means they qualify as a strategic ally.

And the fact that the US & Israel devote so much time and money at keeping the Arabs "down and out" from having a place in the world is exactly why the US has a problem with "terrorists" in the first place.

Talking up democracy while conspiring to keep the Arabs out of the world democracy.

[Hauldren Collider]

Asher if that is the case, why have Britain and Spain also been victims of terrorist attacks?

[OzzyKP]

I'm actually pretty skeptical about the strategic value of our alliance with Israel.

Hmm, perhaps there isn't much. Looking at it from a purely American perspective, support for Israel is the number one thing that pisses off the radical Islamists, and if we stopped perhaps they wouldn't hate us so much. (then again it may be too late to change that now)

I do think that the existence of Israel, while of no strategic value, is certainly just a good thing overall, and while perhaps foolish from a purely strategic viewpoint, is, I think, worth guaranteeing.

The question of whether they are able enough to guarantee that on their own without our help or not is another question.

[Asher]

Asher if that is the case, why have Britain and Spain also been victims of terrorist attacks?

The UK is a close US ally and shares much of the same foreign agenda.

Are you talking about Spain's train bombings? That had nothing to do with al-Qaeda.

[OzzyKP]

Asher if that is the case, why have Britain and Spain also been victims of terrorist attacks?

Iraq.

[Hauldren Collider]

Then why hasn't Canada? Canada is a big US ally. In fact, about 3/4 of polled Americans think we should defend Canada if it were attacked, probably because you guys can't defend yourselves and we always feel sorry for people like that.

[Asher]

Then why hasn't Canada? Canada is a big US ally. In fact, about 3/4 of polled Americans think we should defend Canada if it were attacked, probably because you guys can't defend yourselves and we always feel sorry for people like that.

Canada has made a point of not blindly following the US lead, eg...Canada has stayed the hell out of Iraq.

The fact that Canada does not have a huge military that is out waging wars in other people's countries is a BIG REASON why Canada is also not a big target.