Ships to Gaza incident

[Robert]

The war is started by the provocator who is going to breach the blockade.
This counted for the cuba crisis and it counts here as well.

By blaming Israel, without stating clearly that the action of the 'activists' is wrong and targetted only at creating a conflict, it's not weird that I conclude that you support them. I'm glad that this seems not to be the case.

[Robert]

And feel free to call me Robert

[Wernazuma III]

500 extremists* who wanted to die as martyrs were about to enter Gaza.
I'd say that's a very immenent treath.

[...]

The bottom line is, why are people like you, sane, rational, democratic people, supporting people like this:

http://www.newsrealblog.com/2010/06/01/confession-flotilla-nazis-planned-to-attack-israel-die-as-martyrs/

*there were also some idealists

Hell, if they were so obviously a deadly threat why would you let a few poor soldiers get into the wasps' nest at night? And how on earth would 500 wannabe martyrs menace Israel with rods and a bit of cement? What an idiotic argument. The journalistic masterpiece you quote has "Flotilla-Nazis" in its title.
If they were all planning to attack Israel, why were they released so quickly?

The Hamas guy on TV himself said "they" (probably several people on the attacked ship, but far from the 500 you want to attribute this to) wanted martyrdom, and would resist attack "with their fingernails" - what a threat!! What an euphemism for violence against the Zionists!! While the whole idea of martyrhood is inane, it doesn't necessarily* mean terrorism or violence against others - just think about early Christian martyrs.

You really get an award for posting the most braindead contribution to this treadh.
Not the most unhuman one though, Oerdin is leading that competition by miles.


*which in turn doesn't mean that it couldn't involve that, obviously.

[Wezil]

By blaming Israel, without stating clearly that the action of the 'activists' is wrong and targetted only at creating a conflict, it's not weird that I conclude that you support them. I'm glad that this seems not to be the case.

Even Israel admits this was done in international waters. The blame is deserved.


And I'll stick with Plomp. It feels right.

[a.kitman]

one thing i would like to know is what turkeys goal is here. are they just after scoring some points whit there own population or are they after something else.
they have after all for a very long time been one of few muslim nations to have descent relation and trade whit israel.

[Wezil]

Hell, if they were so obviously a deadly threat why would you let a few poor soldiers get into the wasps' nest at night? And how on earth would 500 wannabe martyrs menace Israel with rods and a bit of cement? What an idiotic argument. The journalistic masterpiece you quote has "Flotilla-Nazis" in its title.
If they were all planning to attack Israel, why were they released so quickly?

I was impressed by the Israeli photo-op displaying the tons of weapons seized. It was impressive. Or did I dream that?

[BeBMan]

However, it is not really clear if we have an 'armed conflict' here, unless Israel maintains the last war against Hamas is still going on.

Well, the armed conflict has of course never ended.
There's no peace treaty, and I think there's not even a cease fire.
If it would be over, there would not be a blockade.

Both sides declared cease-fires at the end of the Gaza-War. While they didn't hold long, I don't hear any official Israeli gov position that says they still regard the war as de-facto 'going on'. It's similar to other situations, for example North and South Korea are technically at war since there is no peace treaty but not de-facto. There also was no peace treaty after WWII with Germany, still nobody would say the war ended only with the re-unification and intl 2+4 talks leading to agreements between Germany and WWII victor states in the 1990s.

[Robert]

Hell, if they were so obviously a deadly threat why would you let a few poor soldiers get into the wasps' nest at night?

Because they only wanted to search the ship for weapons.

And how on earth would 500 wannabe martyrs menace Israel with rods and a bit of cement? What an idiotic argument.

First of all be breaching the blockade.

The journalistic masterpiece you quote has "Flotilla-Nazis" in its title.

My link was about the video.
I did not even read the text that surrounded it.

Even Israel admits this was done in international waters. The blame is deserved.

It's not the "international" thing that bothers me.
What bothers me though is that you all react as a bunch of laywers.
Apparently you do not care about Turkey provocing a friendly nation this way, only for internal reasons.

You do care about something as tiny as if Israel was allowed to do it in international waters or if they should have let the ship sail another mile and do it then.
But you do not care about 'activists' who use extreme violence when their ship is boarded by a few marines who want to search the ship for weapons.

You talk a lot about international law, but you ignore the activists who refer to genocide and dying as a martyr.

And I'll stick with Plomp. It feels right.

In that case it's mr. Plomp

[Robert]

Both sides declared cease-fires at the end of the Gaza-War. While they didn't hold long, I don't hear any official Israeli gov position that says they still regard the war as de-facto 'going on'. It's similar to other situations, for example North and South Korea are technically at war since there is no peace treaty but not de-facto. There also was no peace treaty after WWII with Germany, still nobody would say the war ended only with the re-unification and intl 2+4 talks leading to agreements between Germany and WWII victor states in the 1990s.

cease fire doesn't equal peace and the end of an armed conflict.
And even this cease fire has been breached often.
For Israel this is a reason to maintiain the blockade.

[BeBMan]

So we had war in Europe from 1945-ca. 1990, that makes sense.

[MOBIUS]

Only people who clami to own superior morality dare to doubt the honorable reasons for others to have a different position.
It's not a good sight if you can't handle it that people have a different opinion then you.

Says the person who says he respects the experts, but then disagrees with them...

You really are a piece of work.

The people of Gaza are the final victims, along with the civilians who are affected on the Israelian side.
The main question is, who's primary responsible for this. Since the people on the west bank are living under much better conditions, which are still improving every day, I doubt that the terrible position of the people in Gaza is to blame on the Israelians.

Let's see, who bombed the Gazans with White Phosphorous and destroyed their homes but refuses to allow them to rebuild them? Who has contol over the borders again? Hamas resupplies through the smuggling tunnels with Egypt - the only people this blockade hurts are the innocent civilians while at the same time helping Hamas to strengthen its grip on the enclave by acting as a powerful recruiting tool!

This is the lesson Israel has learned from the holocaust.
To prevent it from happening again, they will this time defend themselves properly.

Ah I see, pre-emptively put all your enemies into concentration camps and slowly kill them before they do it to you...

The ones who use these civilians as a shield to cover their terroristic operations?

So now you're justifying the murder of innocent Palestinians - I guess you don't like Muslims very much...

[Wezil]

It's not the "international" thing that bothers me.

It does bother me. If Israel can do it, so can someone else.

What bothers me though is that you all react as a bunch of laywers.

Strange that.

Apparently you do not care about Turkey provocing a friendly nation this way, only for internal reasons.

"Friendly nation" - Turkey is a member of NATO. Israel is not.

I do care about Israeli/Turkey conflicts. Consider - Turks consider the blockade of Gaza to be illegal and punitive. It's not a surprise they would do what they can to break it.

Btw, apparently there is an Irish ship currently on the way. It's not just Turkey.

You do care about something as tiny as if Israel was allowed to do it in international waters or if they should have let the ship sail another mile and do it then.

Yes. What nations choose to do inside their own territory is a different matter.

But you do not care about 'activists' who use extreme violence when their ship is boarded by a few marines who want to search the ship for weapons.

An illegal search and detention that anyone has the right to resist. The marines should not have been there.

You talk a lot about international law, but you ignore the activists who refer to genocide and dying as a martyr.

Yeah, Israel was pretty stupid in this case in that they walked right into it.

In that case it's mr. Plomp

We'll see.

[Robert]

So we had war in Europe from 1945-ca. 1990, that makes sense.

Thanks for taking away the 'most braindead comment in this thread' award from me

[MOBIUS]

Btw, apparently there is an Irish ship currently on the way. It's not just Turkey.

Everyone knows the Irish are terrorists...

[Robert]

It does bother me. If Israel can do it, so can someone else.

And in this case everybody should.
If a bunch of idiots, singing about killing a lot of your people, approach your coast, please send some marines to them to at least search their ship for weapons.

"Friendly nation" - Turkey is a member of NATO. Israel is not.

I was refering to Turkey and Israel having mutual friendly relations.

It's not a surprise they would do what they can to break it.

Even use violence, while not at war?

Btw, apparently there is an Irish ship currently on the way. It'sd not just Turkey.

It most probably contains not 500 wannabe martyrs singing about genocide.

Yes. What nations choose to do inside their own territory is a different matter.

Gaza blockade?

An illegal search and detention that anyone has the right to resist. The marines should not have been there.

Even with extreme violence?

Yeah, Israel was pretty stupid in this case in that they walked right into it.

There was, once again, no right decision for Israel to make here.
And as always, Israel decided to defend it's civilians.