Ships to Gaza incident

[Kitschum]

The ships were in Israeli waters. They were 150 miles plus in Israelis exclusive economic zone and worse they publicly stated their goal was to break the law and land illegally.

What law are you referring to?

They were not in Israel's territorial waters, which is the important distinction, and even if they had travelled the entire way to the Gaza coast they could have done so without ever entering Israeli waters (since Gaza is not Israel).

If all they wanted to do was deliver humanitarian supplies then Israel allows in ample amounts on a daily basis but instead these fanatics said they wanted to deliver cargo unscreened. If they only wanted to deliver humanitarian supplies then why not just deliver them via the proper channels? Israel offered to allow it.

The problem with that solution is that Israel prohibits certain basic necessities, like construction materials to rebuild after Israel's disastrous Gaza campaign in 2008/2009, so they would never get through the "proper channels".

The other obvious point here is that the legality of the blockade is highly questionable because it hurts the civilian population disproportionally.

Here's some examples of what Israel thinks itself justified to allow and prohibit to the Gazan population:

[Kitschum]

Erdogan can lombast all he wants but the reality is the Turkish military has already threatened to over throw him on at least two occasions (for violating the Kemalic command of atheism) and militarily there is zero Turkey can do. Erdogan has already done just about every thing he can do to be hostile towards Israel since he took power so all he can do is make firey speeches and claim this mole hill is really a mountain. In two years no one will care.

The Kemalists are toothless. If you had made those claims 20 years maybe they would have been credible. Besides, in the event of an actual sinking of the Mavi Marmara with more than 400 Turkish citizens on board, as we were discussing, the public pressure to do something would have been immense.

As much as I like though I can't get into a military masturbatory fantasy over a Turkey-Israel war right now.

[MOBIUS]

But Oerdin can, I bet he's just itching to see Israel use its nukes! He said as much with his hypocritical statement:

If terrorist sponsors seek to get nukes then they will glow in the dark long before they get them.

Besides, what's worse, a terrorist sponsor - or a terrorist nation like Israel appears to have become!?

[Ellestar]

So what was the joke about contraband referring to?

First you indiscriminately bomb civilian targets, then you label cement as contraband. That's why i joked, what's next that regime will invent? Contraband water or contraband air? So, paragraph 146 of some obscure non-binding document is certainly interesting, but i think cement is a humanitarian aid in this case, and i know for a fact that it's illegal to blockade humanitarian aid (even if i don't remember an exact paragraph of some document).

Public opinion is manipulated with little regard to actual events or laws.

Even opinion of governments and government officials all over the world?

Nice evasion.

Your original point was that it is unreasonable to force Hamas to step down from power, because they were 'democratically elected' and thus a legitimate government.

I assume you concede you were wrong?

I say they're legitimate enough anyway. They have a support at home (and they worked hard to achieve this, they didn't just "manipulate the public opinion" (c) like most other democratically elected governments did) so they're thousand times more legitimate than whatever puppet regime outsiders will place instead of them. So yes, it's unreasonable to force Hamas to step down from power.

[Dinner]

Israeli is recognized as the defacto government of Gaza and has been since the 1960's. The ships were in Israeli's exclusive economic zone and subject to military blockade due to on going military conflict, these laws are well established and have been for hundreds of years. WOW! Importing donkeys and asses are now "basic necessities"? Bull****, everyone gets basic food and humanitarian supplies while dual use items are denied. If the illegal terrorist powers in Gaza hadn't tried to subvert those items then they would be allowed (and, yes, the current "government" of Gaza is illegal as they publicly executed the legally elected government and seized power).

As for cement only being allowed through official channals that is because Hamas hijacks most shipments and uses it to build bunkers or fighting positions. Israel does allow cement and bricks in to Gaza but only to real humanitarian organizations (like the UN) who will not give them to Hamas to build military fighting installations. Cry me a ****ing river. The legality of the blockade is not even remotely questionable as Israel has even been recognized by the UN as the legal controlling power and Hamas's illegal regime has been universally internationally recognized as an illegal government which seized power via a coupe d'estate.

[Dinner]

First you indiscriminately bomb civilian targets, then you label cement as contraband.

Cement is not contra band. Only if it is not given to responsible aid organizations known to not supply terrorist groups is it not allowed. Yes, hamas takes cement and uses it to build bunkers which is a military application and so must not be allowed. Any and all legitimate humanitarian supplies can enter once the contents have been properly screened yet the fanatics didn't want to have it screened which implies they're trying to hide military hardware under the disguise of humanitarian aid. **** them and let them die before weapons are allowed to be given to terrorist groups like Hamas.

[Dinner]

Hey, Elle. I've decided I'm going to give "humanitarian supplies" to Caucasian muslims and I figure plastic explosives and anti-tank mines will be part of the shipment. What do you think of that? What's that you say? You want the Russian government to be able to search the shipment for contraband before it enters the country? Gee, I guess you agree with Israel after all.

[MOBIUS]

What a moron...

[MOBIUS]

I'm sure I'm not the only one noting the Keystone Cops nature of the Israeli military and government - virtually everything they've done recently has been disastrously amateurish...

An interesting article: PR dangerously distorts the Israeli sense of reality

An old Israeli saying describing various less-than-esteemed military leaders says: "He was so stupid that even the other generals noticed." The same derisive remark could be applied almost without exception to the present generation of Israeli politicians.

Such healthy scepticism among Israelis about the abilities of their military and political leaders has unfortunately ebbed in recent decades. As a result, Israelis are left perplexed as to why their wars, military interventions and armed actions have so often ended in failure since the 1973 war, despite the superiority of their armed forces.

The latest example of this is the assault on the Gaza aid convoy by naval commandos, a confrontation initiated by Israel which thereby ensured that the convoy's organisers achieved their objectives to a degree beyond their wildest dreams. By using assault troops in a police action against civilians with predictably bloody results Israel managed to focus international attention on its blockade of Gaza, which the world had hitherto largely ignored. The Israeli action infuriated Turkey, once its strongest ally in the region, and strengthened the claim of Hamas to Palestinian leadership.

The capacity of Israel to shoot itself in the foot needs explanation. From the beginning the operation was idiotic, since Israel was always likely to look bad after any confrontation between élite troops and civilian protesters. Even more ludicrous is the Israeli explanation that their élite and heavily armed soldiers were at risk of their lives because they had to use thick gloves to protect their hands when sliding down cables from a helicopter and therefore could not use their weapons.

The nature of the fiasco should cause little surprise because such botched Israeli military actions have been the norm for years. The 1982 invasion of Lebanon was discredited by the massacre of Palestinians in Sabra and Shatila refugee camps by Christian militias loosed on them by Israeli army commanders. Syria, not Israel, became the predominant power in Lebanon. In south Lebanon, the Israeli army fought a long and unsuccessful guerrilla war against Hizbollah. The bombardments of Lebanon in 1996 and 2006 left Hizbollah stronger, and a similar attack on Gaza in 2008 failed to weaken Hamas.

The problem is that nobody believes Israeli propaganda as much as Israelis (and Oerdin). Pro-Palestinian activists often lament the fluency and mendacity of Israeli spokesmen on the airwaves and the pervasive influence of Israel's supporters abroad. But, in reality, these PR campaigns are Israel's greatest weakness, because they distort Israelis' sense of reality. Defeats and failures are portrayed as victories and successes.

The slaughter of civilians is justified as a military necessity or somehow the fault of the other side. Opponents are demonised as bloodthirsty terrorists. Comforted by such benign accounts of their activities, Israeli leaders are consumed by arrogance because they come to believe they have never made a mistake. Denial that errors have occurred makes it extremely difficult to sack generals or ministers, however gross their incompetence or record of failure.

Many Israelis privately take their own propaganda with a pinch of salt, though the number is diminishing. But abroad, the most third-rate Israeli politicians strut before fawning audiences as heroic defenders of the state. Not surprisingly they return home with a dangerously inflated idea of their own abilities and in a perilously self-important mood.

The Israeli propaganda machine, official and private, has been running full throttle in the last few days justifying the assault on the aid convoy to Gaza. Probably spokesmen feel they are performing well given the weakness of their case. In fact, they do nothing but harm to Israel. The greater their success in denying gross and culpable mistakes, the more likely it is that the perpetrators will hold their jobs – and the more likely it is that the mistakes will be endlessly repeated.

Even Oerdin could have done better...

[Kitschum]

The legality of the blockade is not even remotely questionable as Israel has even been recognized by the UN as the legal controlling power and Hamas's illegal regime has been universally internationally recognized as an illegal government which seized power via a coupe d'estate.

First of all, on the legality of the blockade. None of what you cite is relevant. Even if Israel's cause were more just than Hamas, and I'm not saying either way, they would not be more permitted to break humanitarian laws.

Israel likes to refer to the San Remo manual to defend the boarding (esp. art. 67). Well, let's take a look at another article, 102:

102. The declaration or establishment of a blockade is prohibited if:

(a) it has the sole purpose of starving the civilian population or denying it other objects essential for its survival; or
(b) the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade.

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce

That relates to the question of cement for bunkers too, because even if Hamas takes some of it to use for military purposes the blockade will still be illegal if it disproportionally affects the civilian population. The ban on 'disproportionate' responses is supported in the 4th Geneva Convention too.

Now on the actual impact of the blockade. Here's some selections from a recent WHO report (more at the link):

As a consequence of Israel’s blockade of the Gaza Strip, 98 percent of industrial operations have been shut down since 2007 and there are acute shortages of fuel, cash, cooking gas and other basic supplies.
...
The ban on imports of building materials has prevented the rebuilding of some 6,400 homes destroyed or severely damaged by Israel’s military operation in Gaza in 2008-2009 and prevented the construction of some 7,500 homes to cater for an expanding population. Some 3,500 families are still displaced.
...
Water-related health problems are widespread in the Strip because of the blockade and Israel’s military operation in Gaza, which destroyed water and sanitation infrastructure, including reservoirs, wells, and thousands of kilometres of piping.
...
Israel’s 2008-2009 military operation damaged 15 of the Strip’s 27 hospitals and damaged or destroyed 43 of its 110 primary health care facilities, none of which have been repaired or rebuilt because of the construction materials ban. Some 15-20 percent of essential medicines are commonly out of stock and there are shortages of essential spare parts for many items of medical equipment, the WHO report said.
...
As a result, the steady decline in the infant mortality rate in recent decades has stalled over the past few years and may have even risen in Gaza, which has a mortality rate around 30 percent higher than in the West Bank. Watery diarrhoea, acute bloody diarrhoea and viral hepatitis are the major causes of morbidity among reportable infectious diseases in the Strip.

http://www.irinnews.org/Report.aspx?ReportId=89169

[BeBMan]

Leo2A4 vs Merkava IV.. Droooool...

[MOBIUS]

Of course, they were asking for it

It's time the Israeli government's PR team made the most of its talents, and became available for hire. Then whenever a nutcase marched into a shopping mall in somewhere like Wisconsin and gunned down a selection of passers-by, they could be on hand to tell the world's press "The gunman regrets the loss of life but did all he could to avoid violence." Then various governments would issue statements saying "All we know is a man went berserk with an AK 47, and next to him there's a pile of corpses, so until we know the facts we can't pass judgement on what took place."

To strengthen their case the Israelis have released a photo of the weapons they found on board, (which amount to some knives and tools and wooden sticks) that the naive might think you'd expect to find on any ship, but the more astute will recognise as exactly what you'd carry if you were planning to defeat the Israeli army. It's an armoury smaller than you'd find in the average toolshed in a garden in Cirencester, which goes to show the Israelis had better destroy Cirencester quickly as an essential act of self-defence.

It's a shame they weren't more imaginative, as they could have said "We also discovered a deadly barometer, a ship's compass, which could not only be frisbeed at someone's head but even had markings to help the assailant know which direction he was throwing it, and a set of binoculars that could easily be converted into a ray-gun."

That would be as logical as the statement from the Israeli PM's spokesman – "We made every possible effort to avoid this incident." Because the one tiny thing they forgot to do to avoid this incident was not send in armed militia from helicopters in the middle of the night and shoot people. I must be a natural at this sort of technique because I often go all day without climbing off a helicopter and shooting people, and I'm not even making every possible effort. Politicians and commentators worldwide repeat a version of this line. They're aware a nation has sent its militia to confront people carrying provisions for the desperate, in the process shooting several of them dead, and yet they angrily blame the dead ones. One typical headline yesterday read "Activists got what they wanted – confrontation." It's an attitude so deranged it deserves to be registered as a psychosis, something like "Reverse Slaughter Victim Confusion Syndrome".

Israel and its supporters claim that Viva Palestina, made up of people who collect the donated food, cement and items for providing basic amenities such as toilets, and transport them to Gaza, wanted the violence all along. Because presumably they must have been thinking "Hezbollah couldn't beat them, but that's because unlike us they didn't have a ballcock and several boxes of plum tomatoes".

One article told us the flotilla was full of "Thugs spoiling for a confrontation", and then accused them of being "Less about aid and more about PR. Indeed, on board was Swedish novelist Henning Mankell." So were they thugs or about PR? Did they have a thugs' section and a PR quarter, or did they all muck in, the novelist diverting the soldiers with his characterisation while the thugs attacked them with a lethal spirit level?

But some defenders of Israel are so blind to what happens in front of them there's nothing at all they wouldn't jump to defend. Israel could blow up a cats home and within five minutes they'd be yelling "How do we know the cats weren't smuggling semtex in their fur for Hamas?"

If this incident had been carried about by Iran, or anyone we were trying to portray as an enemy, so much condemnation would have been spewed out it would have created a vast cloud of outrage that airlines would be unable to fly through.

But as it's Israel, most governments offer a few diplomatic words that blame no one, but accept the deaths are "regrettable". They might as well have picked any random word from the dictionary, so the news would tell us "William Hague described the deaths as 'hexagonal'", and a statement from the US senate said "It's all very confusing. In future let's hope they make every effort to avoid a similar incident."

"We also discovered a deadly barometer, a ship's compass, which could not only be frisbeed at someone's head but even had markings to help the assailant know which direction he was throwing it, and a set of binoculars that could easily be converted into a ray-gun."...

I'm actually really surprised that the Israelis didn't plant some RPGs and AK-47s on the boat - missed a trick there!

[Dinner]

I'm all for restoring Vietnam era "sweep and clear" rules. Order all civilians out of an area, set up refugee camps and make sure everyone is thoroughly searched before entering the camps (as in perp walk them naked), and then fence there asses in telling them anyone who tries to leave will be shot on sight and for good measure put a nice big mine field around the whole camp. Then declare the other 99.99% of the country a military exclusion zone where anyone found will be assumed hostile and shot on sight. Any idiot who refused to go to the designated civilian concentration camp will simply be shot on sight thus solving the problem. It was extremely effective at solving these sorts of problems and Hamas would cease to exist over night if this was done. It worked in Vietnam until whiny liberals made us stop, it worked for the French in Algeria until they stopped using the tactic, it worked for the Italians in Libya, and it worked for the British in South Africa. It's 100% effective at clearing hostiles from an area, it makes sure everyone knows who the boss is, and if the ****heads riot they're conveniently all located in the same place for easy liquidation. Guess who wins?

If the US had kept this up in Vietnam then there simply would have been no viet cong to fight.

[MOBIUS]

Seriously Oerdin, you have a screw loose...

What the Israeli papers say

"When a regular, well-armed, well-trained army goes to war against a 'freedom flotilla' of civilian vessels laden with civilians, food and medication, the outcome is foretold – and it doesn't matter whether the confrontation achieved its goal and prevented the flotilla from reaching Gaza."

Editorial, 'Haaretz'

"As expected, the provocation mounted by Muslim organisations in association with 'peace activists' was successful beyond their wildest dreams: There were casualties. They can now continue pointing the finger at Israel and blaming it for everything under the sun."

Zvi Mazel, 'The Jerusalem Post'

"During the 2006 war in Lebanon I concluded that my 15-year-old daughter could have conducted it more wisely than the Olmert-Peretz government. We've progressed. Today it's clear to me that my 6-year-old son (is he called Oerdin?) could do much better than our current government."

Ari Shavit, 'Haaretz'

"The Israeli image took a mortal blow. And all this happened deep in international waters and turned Israel into a pirate state."

Ben Caspit, 'Maariv'


Hey Oerdin, even the Israeli papers admit this happened 'deep in international waters'...

[Robert]

I'm shocked that rational democratic thinking people backup a group of known terrorists who sing songs about genocide and make no secret about their terroristic goals. A group who starts to use extreme violence, hoping that the other party will make a martyr out of them. A group of people that ignores all calls to bring the help goods to their people who need it in a way that's acceptable to both parties. The ship had one goal: provoce Israel into large ammounts of violence to make Israel look bad. It did not had the goal to help the people of Gaza. Like Hamas has not the goal to help the people of Gaza. The people of Gaza are a tool in the hands of terrorists.
The only people with noble goals on the ship were the few western people with ideals. Not the 400 turks singing about the genoice on the Jews.

I guess it's only possible to think that way if you have been living in peace and freedom for too long.

I hope that the people of Gaza will be freed from their oppressors soon (which is Hamas), and that after that an enduring solution can be found for the people of Gaza. One that really helps them. But their best friends a group of morons.
The problem for the people of Gaza is not their enemy, it's their friends.