World War 2 What If

[Drake Tungsten]

Had the Italians covered a major invasion force with battleships, supported in turn by the Luftwaffe operating from Sicily, I don't know that the RN could have defeated such a force.

The RN would've routed the Italians in a night action, just as the Italians feared given their lack of ship-borne radar and deficient training in night fighting. The Luftwaffe would have a nice view of all the sinking troop transports when they took off in the morning.

[David Floyd]

The other point is this. Following 11/42, the Germans and Italians pumped in over 200,000 combat troops to Tunisia, primarily under the command of 5th Panzerarmee and Italian First Army. This was WITH MALTA in operation. My point is, what if these forces had been committed in June 1942 against 8th Army? Or, granting desert logistical concerns, what if DAK had simply been beefed up to 4 full strength Panzer Divisions, with full strength infantry support? I just don't think the record indicates that 8th Army could have handled this.

[BlackCat]

I think you under estimate the time and effort redeploying from the Eastern front would have taken. Remember you've got to move crew and machinery as well as the planes themselves. that's not going to happen during a Russian winter. You're not going to even begin significant redeployment until May of 1942, and then you've got to move them thousands of miles and find places to put them.

No offense, but that is BS. Redeploying aircrafts isn't halted by winter and trains could actually move. It was on the battlefront and the near supply the winter had an effect.

[David Floyd]

I think you under estimate the time and effort redeploying from the Eastern front would have taken. Remember you've got to move crew and machinery as well as the planes themselves. that's not going to happen during a Russian winter. You're not going to even begin significant redeployment until May of 1942, and then you've got to move them thousands of miles and find places to put them.

Yes, but redeploying significantly prior to November of 1942 is certainly possible. And you don't even necessarily have to move troops from the Russian front - that isn't really where many of the Torch reinforcements came from in 11/42 historically.

Regarding the Regina Marina, no one has had that much faith in the RM since the partisan hung Mussolini upside down. If you're depending on the Regina Marina you're really grasping at straws.

Yes, I agree - this is one of the sticking points of any joint operation.

But let me ask the question this way: Given the proper motivation, do you really think there was no way for the Germans to pump serious reinforcements to North Africa in 6/42, given that the did it in 11/42 historically? That doesn't make any sense.

[David Floyd]

No offense, but that is BS. Redeploying aircrafts isn't halted by winter and trains could actually move. It was on the battlefront and the near supply the winter had an effect.

I think he's talking more about the human element. Also, Soviet and German trains ran on different track gauges pre-war, and to my knowledge, this had not been adequately resolved by mid 1942, which would have seriously impacted strategic redeployment.

[Sharpe]

People forget how powerful the US was industrially compared to the rest of the world during WW2 (and Britain wasn't so bad compared to Germany)

Take for example airplane production during the war (numbers are likely similar or could be similar for tanks, artilllery etc.)

These figures are from The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers book:

Aircraft Production 1939-1944

US 5856 12804 26277 47836 85898 96318
Britain 7940 15049 20094 23672 26263 26461

Germany 8295 10247 11776 15409 24807 39807
Japan 4467 4768 5088 8861 16693 28180
Italy 1800 1800 2400 2400 1600 0

Essentially even without Russia in the war, once the US joined the war - it was the death knell for the Axis - the industrial capacity of the US and Britain combined would overwhelm them in time.

[David Floyd]

I completely agree with that, Sharpe. I just question whether Torch could have been successful, given the correlation of forces at the time.

I think in the worst case scenario, Germany gets hit with dozens of atomic bombs, to which they have no response, although that's assuming they aren't able to convince the West to negotiate a fair peace agreement.

[BlackCat]

I think he's talking more about the human element. Also, Soviet and German trains ran on different track gauges pre-war, and to my knowledge, this had not been adequately resolved by mid 1942, which would have seriously impacted strategic redeployment.

Are you seriously saying that the german command wasn't aware of the difference in track size and that they didin't have any idea as how to handle that ? Yeah, they migth have to reload from one size of waggons to another, but I really do think that the german army was capable to do such.

[Al B. Sure!]

The allies would eventually win just because of industrial capacity. The question though is how long the American people would support a war of attrition? When would the hippies arrive and start protesting?

Right, Dave?

[Nikolai]

With Soviet out, Germany would be able to focus on building Festnung Europa. The D-Day or an equivalent would be much harder. If the UK don't back out, which Hitler would have welcomed, he didn't originally want war with the West, but it became a neccesity, much would rely on the UK surviving the inevitable German onslaught. If the UK falls, the US wouldn't have anywhere to station troops for an invasion. And a Germany who have won in the East, would be able to muster a large force towards the British Isles.

[Thoth]

The allies would eventually win just because of industrial capacity. The question though is how long the American people would support a war of attrition? When would the hippies arrive and start protesting?

Right, Dave?

Actually, the real question is when would the americans have gotten off their fat asses and actually helped if the Japanese and Germans hadn't declared on them.

[BlackCat]

Well, IF the german air forces got superiority, and IF the german subs could keep the RN away, a combined airdrop and invasion of england wasn't impossible.

[BlackCat]

Actually, the real question is when would the americans have gotten off their fat asses and actually helped if the Japanese and Germans hadn't declared on them.

Fortuantedly the japs kicked their balls but if they hadn't - and they probably wouldnt had done it if the russians were defeated, then things would have looked quite different.

[Thoth]

nm

[Drake Tungsten]

Actually, the real question is when would the americans have gotten off their fat asses and actually helped if the Japanese and Germans hadn't declared on them.

The answer is never. There was no need for America to get involved in someone else's war just because the Brits and Soviets were getting their asses kicked.