Sex abuse scandal. Guess the religion?

[Nikolai]

If you are going to quote me, get it right.

I didn't quote you directly, here's the direct quote:

Think of the education of the teacher with the priesthood. Just as the teacher will always have their education, so will a priest always be considered a priest.

I'd say it support my representation.

[Ming]

Remember, we are talking about countries like England, not so long ago. Personally, I don't want that situation coming around again, and the recent hostility doesn't inspire confidence that religious rights will be respected by an administration which has no respect for the constitution.

The right to practice your religion is protected in the US... The right to rape children isn't.

First it was one case. I showed that not only was I right, I actually understated the problem. Feel free to find numbers from other states that contradict the GA numbers.

Easy enough...

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2000/rpt/olr/htm/2000-r-1064.htm

I would agree, except the state doesn't seem all that interested in protecting their citizens.

Far more interested than the church, who just tried to cover it up for years instead of turning them over to the authorities.

And that case was already brought up earlier in the thread. It was the result of a breach in policy, not the other way around. I don't believe there's any concrete evidence of a cover up by a church that has actually exceeded the reporting standards as requested by the authorities. So, I await your praise for the Church for what they have done today, not bringing up their failures from 30 years ago.

Not failures from 30 years ago... but failures that have went on for over 30 years. It wasn't until around 2003/04 that the Church finally had to do something about it because of the outcry from the people. You want me to praise them for 6 years... nah, I'll be outraged for the 30 or more years prior.

What? That the priests reoffend? Their recedivism rate is much lower than in the general population by the current government's policies which are ineffective at treating child molestors. Clearly the church is doing something right.

You have yet to prove that... where are your facts and figures.

I wasn't aware that they attached names to those listings. Doesn't that violate your own laws wrt to privacy? They don't even tell you what they did.

Gee... I get their names, addresses and what they were convicted of. I can also get a map to see how close they live to my house. They gave up that right to privacy when they became sex offenders. So at least I know the risks in my area... unlike the Church who just shifted their problems to unsuspecting people in a new parash.

I have looked at all the links. Why is it everyone assumes that because I personally disagree that I didn't actually look at the sources?

You obviously didn't look at it very closely. It goes against much of the stuff you make up.
Again, it was a study done by the church, but since it proves you wrong, you just claim it's bad research. Yet you don't point to anything real, you just throw stuff out their with no support.

What if they drag kids off the street and send em to afghanistan where they blow themselves up? Do you believe that's right?

I'd be against the RCC if they did that too.

Because I believe that God's law trumps man's law. Where does their law state that child molestation is ok? I don't see it.

I'm sure Jesus wouldn't have wanted his follows to protect child rapists... and I'm sure he wouldn't have wanted them turned loose on unsuspecting followers.

[Wezil]

He doesn't realise it Ming....

You guys have spent page after page arguing with a lunatic.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

VATICAN CITY — Pope Benedict XVI rebuked Irish bishops Saturday for "grave errors of judgment" in handling clerical sex abuse cases and ordered an investigation into the Irish church. But he laid no blame for the problem on the Vatican's policies of keeping such cases secret.

In a letter to the Irish faithful read across Europe amid a growing, multination abuse scandal, the pope apologized to victims but doled out no specific punishments to bishops blamed by Irish government-ordered investigations for having covered up abuse of thousands of Irish children from the 1930s to the 1990s.

Ireland's main group of clerical-abuse victims, One in Four, said it was deeply disappointed by the letter because it failed to place responsibility with the Vatican for what it called a "deliberate policy of the Catholic Church at the highest levels to protect sex offenders, thereby endangering children."

"If the church cannot acknowledge this fundamental truth, it is still in denial," the group said.

The letter directly addressed only Ireland, but the Vatican said it could be read as applying to other countries. Hundreds of new allegations of abuse have recently come to light across Europe, including in the pope's native Germany, where he served as archbishop in a diocese where several victims have recently come forward. One priest suspected of molesting boys while the future pope was in charge was transferred to a job where he abused more children.

While a cardinal at the Vatican, Joseph Ratzinger penned a 2001 letter instructing bishops around the world to report all cases of abuse to his office and keep the church investigations secret under threat of excommunication. While the Vatican insists that secrecy rule only applied to the church's investigation and didn't preclude reporting abuse to police, Irish bishops have said the letter was widely understood to mean they shouldn't report the cases to civil authorities.

"You have suffered grievously and I am truly sorry," Benedict said, addressing himself to Irish Catholics who suffered "sinful and criminal" abuse at the hands of priests, brothers and nuns and a botched response by their superiors.

"It is understandable that you find it hard to forgive or be reconciled with the church," he said. "In her name, I openly express the shame and remorse that we all feel."

Benedict used his harshest words for the abusers themselves, saying they had betrayed the trust of the faithful, brought shame on the church and now must answer before God and civil authorities.

"Conceal nothing," he exhorted them. "Openly acknowledge your guilt, submit yourselves to the demands of justice, but do not despair of God's mercy."

Benedict faulted their superiors, the Irish bishops, for having failed "sometimes grievously" to apply the church's own law which calls for harsh punishments for child abusers, including defrocking priests.

But he didn't rebuke them for having failed to report cases of abuse to police, saying only that serious mistakes were made and that now they must prevent future abuse and "continue to cooperate with civil authorities."

"I recognize how difficult it was to grasp the extent and complexity of the problem, to obtain reliable information and to make the right decisions in the light of conflicting expert advice," Benedict wrote.

"Nevertheless, it must be admitted that grave errors of judgment were made and failures of leadership occurred. And this has seriously undermined your credibility and effectiveness."

While the letter doled out no punishment for the bishops, the pope did order a Vatican investigation into some dioceses, seminaries and religious orders. Such a move is undertaken only when Rome considers a local church unable to deal with a problem on its own. The Vatican ordered such an "apostolic visitation" into U.S. seminaries after the U.S. clerical sex abuse scandal exploded in 2002.

The results of the Irish investigation could lead to further action.

Victims have been demanding that bishops resign, and three Irish bishops have offered to step down. Benedict hasn't accepted the resignations.

Asked why there were no punitive provisions in the letter, Vatican spokesman the Rev. Federico Lombardi noted that the letter was pastoral, not administrative or disciplinary in nature, and that any further measures concerning resignations would be taken by the competent Vatican offices.

Cardinal Sean Brady, the top cardinal in Ireland who himself is under fire for not reporting a notorious abuser to police, welcomed the letter, as did archbishops from across Europe.

"Let us pray that the Holy Father's pastoral letter will be the beginning of a great season of rebirth and hope in the Irish Church," he said.

But One in Four, the victims' group, said a new church leadership is necessary in Ireland for the church to regain its credibility.

"In relation to the Irish bishops, the pope acknowledges their failings, but situates them in failures to adhere to cannon law," the group said. "There is no appreciation that the law of the land supersedes cannon law, and that the Catholic bishops, like any other citizens, are obliged to abide by Irish law."

Three Irish government-ordered investigations published from 2005 to 2009 have documented how thousands of Irish children suffered rape, molestation and other abuse by priests in their parishes and by nuns and brothers in boarding schools and orphanages. Irish bishops did not report a single case to police until 1996 after victims began to sue the church.

The reports have faulted the Vatican for sending confusing messages to the Irish church about norms to be followed and, in general, for what it called the absence of a coherent set of canon laws and rules to apply in cases of abuse.

In particular, the so-called Murphy report faulted the 2001 secrecy letter penned by then-Cardinal Ratzinger, who headed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith for a quarter-century before becoming pope, making him the most informed Vatican official about the global scale of clerical abuse.

In that role, he denounced the "filth" in the priesthood and initiated what has amounted to a crackdown on predatory priests, demanding a policy of zero tolerance from his bishops. As pope, he has met with American, Australian and Canadian victims of abuse, offering them comfort and apologies.

Nevertheless, reports emerged last week that while he was archbishop of Munich in the 1980s, Ratzinger approved therapy for a priest suspected of molesting boys. The priest was then transferred to a job where he later abused more children. He was convicted in a criminal trial. The archdiocese has said Ratzinger's then vicar general took full responsibility for the transfer.

Lombardi defended Benedict in his handling of the global abuse scandal and said anyone who knows the pontiff's background and history would know he has been a "witness for coherence and correctness" in confronting abuse and a "guide to overcome a past of silence."

Lombardi was peppered with questions about why the German-born pope didn't directly address the German scandal or take the opportunity of the letter to make a more sweeping commentary on the now-global dimensions of the scandal.

Lombardi acknowledged the other cases but said the Irish scandal was unique in its scope. But he said that obviously issues in the letter could be read to apply to other countries and individuals.

"You can't talk about the entire world every time," he said. "It risks becoming banal."

The head of the German bishops' conference, Archbishop Robert Zollitsch, said the letter was a message also for Germany.

"The sexual abuse scandal in Ireland is not just an Irish problem, it is the scandal of the church in many places, it is the scandal of the church in Germany," he said.

A prominent German Catholic activist group, We Are Church, said it respected the pope's efforts with the letter.

But it faulted him for failing to address the fact that abuse is a global and structural problem for the church. "It would be good if there would be a mea culpa from him for all victims around the globe," said spokesman Christian Weisner.

this:

One priest suspected of molesting boys while the future pope was in charge was transferred to a job where he abused more children.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

There can only be one real answer for all of this.

The Pope is a child predator.

[Asher]

That explains his enthusiasm for the Hitler youth.

[Ben Kenobi]

I'd say it support my representation.

Thanks for quoting me. I said that the education of a teacher (her degree), is similar to that of ordination of a priest. She may be disciplined and no longer permitted to teach, but her education is still there.

[Ben Kenobi]

Pope Benedict XVI rebuked Irish bishops Saturday for "grave errors of judgment

I'm not sure how you get that out of the article, EmpFab. I realise that you hate the pope, but you hated him before, so that's not really news.

That's an excellent hit piece though. Glad to see yellow journalism is still alive and well. When they had to stick to the facts, the piece is actually not that bad. You tend to quote the sections on opinion though.

[Ben Kenobi]

For the benefit of everyone:

Alabama: One to 10 years

Alaska: Up to five years

Arizona: Up to five years.

Arkansas: Up to six years

California: Up to six years in county jail

Colorado: Three months to 12 years depending on the severity of the harm and the offender's state of mind

Connecticut: Up to one year

Delaware: If the child suffers serious physical injury, up to two years; (3) is otherwise injured, up to one year.

District of Columbia: Up to 15 years, (but requires grave harm and significant physical injury). Presumably molestation without either is not charged at all.


Florida: Up to 30 years (requires grave physical harm, physical disability.)
Presumably molestation without either is not charged at all.

Georgia: Five to 20 years

One of the few states with a basic minimum law. Of course, as I have shown, this is quite recent. Up until a few years ago, they were letting them out after 2 years.

Hawaii: Physically abuse a family member. Up to one year

Idaho: One to 10 years

Illinois: Class X felony(with grave physical harm or disability). Lesser offenses not charged at all.

Indiana:Knowingly and intentionally cause bodily injury to a person under age 14. 1-6 years, depending on severity of injury.

Iowa: Up to 10 years depending on the severity of harm

Kansas: Five to 10 years (Like Georgia, one of the tougher laws on the books).

Kentucky: Five to 10 years for intentional acts. (one of the tougher laws on the books.

Louisiana: Up to 10 years

Maine: Up to three years

Maryland:Up to 15 years

Massachusetts: Up to five years.

Michigan: other injury, six to 18 months.

Minnesota: Up to one year for substantial emotional harm and up to five years for substantial physical harm.

Mississippi: Up to one year

Missouri:up to seven years otherwise

Montana:Up to one year

Nebraska:Class IIIA, III, and IB felony depending on the severity of the harm.

Probably the toughest law out there.

Nevada: Two to 20 years

New Hampshire: Up to seven years

New Jersey: Five to 10 years. Like KY, GA, KS

New Mexico: up to five years

New York: Up to one year

North Carolina: Six months to two years depending on severity of harm

North Dakota: otherwise up to five years

Ohio: six to 12 months, but includes corporal punishment. Crappiest state in the union for kid protection.

Oklahoma: Up to 10 years

Oregon: Class C felony.

Pennsylvania: First-degree misdemeanor

Rhode Island: Between 5 and 20 years, like KY, GA, KS, NJ

South Carolina: Up to 30 days

South Dakota: Up to 10 years

Tennessee: Up to 11 months.

Texas: 180 days to 99 years or life.

Utah: Class C misdemeanor

Vermont:Up to two years


Virginia: One to five years

Washington: Up to five years

West Virginia: one to five years

Wisconsin: Up to 10 years depending on the severity of the harm

Wyoming: Up to five years

[Ben Kenobi]

So there are 7 states that I would be wrong about:

GA, KY, KS, NJ, RI, OR, NE that all have minimum sentences of 5 years or more for molestation.

Every other state has minimums that are far lower. TX is the only one that will effectively give a molestor life.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Disagreeing with the Pope != hate. He's no JPII, but he ain't that bad. He is wrong on this matter.

I just really wanted to offend you. Because I find your argument very offensive. Glad it worked

[Asher]

So there are 6 states that I would be wrong about:

GA, KY, KS, NJ, RI, OR, NE that all have minimum sentences of 5 years for molestation.

Every other state has minimums that are far lower. TX is the only one that will effectively give a molestor life.

It's interesting you put so much effort into researching this...

Hmm.

Where did you say you wanted to move again?

[Ecofarm]

District of Columbia: Up to 15 years, (but requires grave harm and significant physical injury). Presumably molestation without either is not charged at all.

Florida: Up to 30 years (requires grave physical harm, physical disability.)
Presumably molestation without either is not charged at all.

Illinois: Class X felony(with grave physical harm or disability). Lesser offenses not charged at all.

What are those comments about? It really sounds like Ben is trying to downplay the harm done by molestation and present a case that it is a very minor crime. I seriously doubt that Illinois only charges people with child molestation/sexual abuse if there is "grave physical harm or disability". The first two are flippant comments meant to belittle the charges, the last one is a flat-out lie intended to (again) downplay the seriousness of sexually abusing a minor.

[Asher]

I think he copy/pasted that from NAMBLA's site.

[BlackCat]

I guess it covers the cases where the child is molested in a gentle way, no dirty words are used and of course the child is told that it is gods wish.