The future of South Africa in your opinion [serious]

[aneeshm]

Cali: "Thank God I'm an anglo-saxon"
Hera: "Thank God I'm white"
Annie: "Thank God I'm not Dalit"

If you are here saying that my views are derived from some "group-ist" attitude, you are mistaken. The scenario I outlined above has been the one universally played out whenever the conditions I described are met.

The situation is exacerbated when there exist quasi-religious identitarian ideologies or fervours to justify the underclass' cultural mythos of "original superiority". In the case of blacks, there exist a variety of these, the nuttiest being the types exemplified by the Nation of Islam (at least, I hope these are the nuttiest; I cannot think how they could get any more foolish). Here the common thread is a hatred of "the man".

For the Indian undercastes, it varies by region, the common thread being that of the Brahmin as a hated "outsider". (The facts, by the way, have nothing to do with it; multiple studies showing that the inhabitants of a region are closer to each other genetically than to others of the same caste in another region have no effect on these politically-constructed mythologies.)

The Dalits, for instance, have managed to construct a (completely incoherent) "history of India", which is basically the tale of the battle between the "good" Dalits and the "bad" Brahmins. In the south, the Dravidians have managed to construct another fantastic myth, that of the "original land of the Dravidians", or of Lemuria. This 'scholar' even managed to win multiple state awards for his 'scholarship'. These are 'theoretical foundations' of their politics. Need I say more?

(In case it may be relevant here, as far as my views on the "Aryan question" are concerned, I frankly have no idea. The linguistic evidence, combined with quite a few other historical quirks, would seem to indicate that Kurgan is the original homeland for the ancestral (proto-)Indo-European group. But before making any firmer statements, I think it better to wait for genetic studies. Projects like HapMap will, I hope, provide us with sufficient authentic data to put this ultimately pointless debate to rest once and for all. It has been politicised beyond all reason.)

[Ben Kenobi]

Rhodesia actually did pretty well. Zimbabwe is a ****hole.

I have friends that were South African and that diaspora of talent and professionals is not something that is to be easily replaced.

Given that the Cholera epidemic is spreading, I'd have to agree with the posters saying that Mugabeland will likely spread.

[aneeshm]

I have friends that were South African and that diaspora of talent and professionals is not something that is to be easily replaced.

I suspect, given recent developments, that it shall not be replaced at all.

Given that the Cholera epidemic is spreading, I'd have to agree with the posters saying that Mugabeland will likely spread.

And what do you say should have been done about it? Consider the blacks under apartheid, and under Mugabeism. Under which system are they better off? Under which system would they have been better off?

The problem we're confronting is the one I outlined - the sudden extension of the franchise to an unprepared and resentful group. In India, the transfer of power was essentially a cosmetic one - the bureaucracy remained the same, and so did all the other institutions. The only thing that really changed was the leadership at the top, and even that purely in terms of race - the "new" leaders were almost all English-educated professinals. The transfer of power was smooth.

(As a side note, the phenomenon this class managed to keep at bay is not metastasising; the malignancy of underclass democratic resentment is spreading now in India, as people realise that merely electing their "beloved messiah leader", whoever he is, is not enough, and that they too, like the erstwhile dominant classes, shall have to earn their socio-economic status like everyone else. The blame-the-Brahmin rhetoric is rising. Mayawati is our future; we are, IMO, doomed.)

Another part of the problem is that neither apartheid nor the current Mugabeism is the correct answer. Though apartheid may be marginally better in terms of quality of governance/life/utility, it isn't a real solution in any sense. The question is, what is? Is there any formula we know of to prevent either the immediate (Rhodesia, South Africa) or eventual (India, a few peripheral parts of the Anglosphere) underclass-induced collapse of democracy into what we see infecting the world today? I frankly know of no answer, and would be interested if anyone else does.

[Felch]

There are plenty of different ways to **** up a country. Institutional racism ****s a country up, but so does populism and ethnic retribution. I don't know about South Africa, but Zimbabwe has been doing very badly under Mugabe. I'd guess that the average black Zimbabwean is worse off* that they would have been 40 years ago in Rhodesia. Two wrongs just don't make a right.

*Figuring based on infant mortality, literacy, life expectancy, and income.

[BeBMan]

Though SA seems light years away from Zimbabwe right now....what the future brings....meh.

[Imran Siddiqui]

While the future isn't bright, I think that the problem is in cases of brutal repression of a (majority) group, you kind of have to let the resentment and payback play out before you can actually move forward. That may take a few generations.

[aneeshm]

While the future isn't bright, I think that the problem is in cases of brutal repression of a (majority) group, you kind of have to let the resentment and payback play out before you can actually move forward. That may take a few generations.

I suggest you do a search for "SA sucks". Check out the first result - it's a blog. An unabashedly bigoted and racist, may I even say vile blog. But the facts - they hit you. Read what it has to say, holding your breath and pinching your nose if necessary to block out the stench of its tone. Then tell if if this "few generations" is worth is.

[Caligastia]

Another part of the problem is that neither apartheid nor the current Mugabeism is the correct answer. Though apartheid may be marginally better in terms of quality of governance/life/utility, it isn't a real solution in any sense. The question is, what is? Is there any formula we know of to prevent either the immediate (Rhodesia, South Africa) or eventual (India, a few peripheral parts of the Anglosphere) underclass-induced collapse of democracy into what we see infecting the world today? I frankly know of no answer, and would be interested if anyone else does.

Restrict voting rights. Require a basic civics test or something. Granting franchise to ignorant masses is clearly the wrong thing to do. Sadly, this solution is probably not politically feasible.

[MrFun]

Restrict voting rights. Require a basic civics test or something. Granting franchise to black people is clearly the wrong thing to do. Sadly, this solution is probably not politically feasible.

Let's hear it for whitey!

[aneeshm]

Cali, is is possible to have a "phased" introduction of the franchise, the way it actually happened in all the more successful democracies today? First, of course, you'd have the end of apartheid and you'd allow economic equality. Five years later, all those who are in the professions, irrespective of race, get the vote. Next, it is extended downward in levels, so that in around fifteen more years, you have the franchise extended to all those who are literate. Finally, five more years of this, it's extended to everyone, the idea being that by that time:

a) The ignorant masses aren't politically ignorant any longer, and
b) The amount of time in between has allowed for sane and responsible blacks to bubble to to the top of their parties in an environment conducive to such behaviour.

[Dinner]

Aneeshm, I did read that blog, I had a hard time finding it because it has been banned by Google and several other organizations which used to host the blog, and I did find it to be virulently racist to the extreme. If one can sort through the obvious racial propaganda, which is no easy task, then there are indeed some very disturbing things to be seen. I was especially horrified by the farm invasions where old people, adults, and even small children were brutal murdered by blacks hoping that if the white family left they could squat on the farmland. These are not small scale isolated incidences but thousands and thousands over the last ten years. They even showed the mutilated corpses of the white farmers and that, frankly, disgusted me.

[SlowwHand]

nm

[Dinner]

The thing I found most telling was the article on Durban beach. In 1994 it looked like any upper class beach resort in the first world and then today it looked like an absolute cess pool. Sure, it was a whites and Asians only beach during apartheid and that is to be condemned but the vast quantities of trash dumped by lower class blacks, the massive up tick in violent crime, and the disgusting act of blacks crapping & pissing on the beach even though public toilets are just steps away was awful. I mean how do you turn a world class resort destination beach into a hell hole no one but thugs wants to visit? There were literally mountains of trash and human feces.

[aneeshm]

The thing I found most telling was the article on Durban beach. In 1994 it looked like any upper class beach resort in the first world and then today it looked like an absolute cess pool. Sure, it was a whites and Asians only beach during apartheid and that is to be condemned but the vast quantities of trash dumped by lower class blacks, the massive up tick in violent crime, and the disgusting act of blacks crapping & pissing on the beach even though public toilets are just steps away was awful. I mean how do you turn a world class resort destination beach into a hell hole no one but thugs wants to visit? There were literally mountains of trash and human feces.

Aneeshm, I did read that blog, I had a hard time finding it because it has been banned by Google and several other organizations which used to host the blog, and I did find it to be virulently racist to the extreme. If one can sort through the obvious racial propaganda, which is no easy task, then there are indeed some very disturbing things to be seen. I was especially horrified by the farm invasions where old people, adults, and even small children were brutal murdered by blacks hoping that if the white family left they could squat on the farmland. These are not small scale isolated incidences but thousands and thousands over the last ten years. They even showed the mutilated corpses of the white farmers and that, frankly, disgusted me.

Now I ask: are those "few generations of resentment" so casually mentioned by Imran worth it? Will they ever have been worth it, given what you now know? What is worse: apartheid, or the destruction of everything good in SA, along with the wilful killing of thousands and thousands of whites - productive, law-abiding whites, who have been living there for generations - by blacks? Even at their very worst, did the whites to anything remotely comparable to what the blacks are doing now? Does some abstract moral ideal of "equality" justify this savagery? Can anything justify this savagery?

If you were given the power now to change history, the two options being the continuation of apartheid or the current situation, what would you choose?

(Please humour me for a moment and pretend there's no third option; I know in actuality that there is one - there are many, in fact - and that it is one which we've discussed in the past - a slow, gradual, and controlled expansion of the franchise - but let's not consider that for the moment, purely for the sake of this hypothetical.)

[Elok]

Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half-devil and half-child.

Take up the White Man's burden--
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain
To seek another's profit,
And work another's gain.

Take up the White Man's burden--
The savage wars of peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
The end for others sought,
Watch sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hopes to nought.

Take up the White Man's burden--
No tawdry rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper--
The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter,
The roads ye shall not tread,
Go mark them with your living,
And mark them with your dead.

Take up the White Man's burden--
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard--
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:--
"Why brought he us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?"

Take up the White Man's burden--
Ye dare not stoop to less--
Nor call too loud on Freedom
To cloke your weariness;
By all ye cry or whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent, sullen peoples
Shall weigh your gods and you.

Take up the White Man's burden--
Have done with childish days--
The lightly proferred laurel,
The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years
Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers!