advice

[Kuciwalker]

I seem to have gotten into a bit of a predicament with a close friend (who is a first-generation immigrant from China; she came over when she was 9 months old) regarding cultural sensitivity. The conversation (posted with her permission; a tl;dr at bottom):

[16:55] Girl: http://www.ctvolympics.ca/figure-ska...tml?cid=rssctv
[16:55] Alex: those outfits are hideous
[16:55] Girl: well, so are most ice dancing costumes
[16:55] Girl: but that's beyond the point
[16:55] Alex: :P
[16:55] Girl: did you skim the article?
[16:55] Alex: I'm reading it now
[16:55] Alex: basically
[16:56] Alex: a bunch of indians are upset that russians wore loincloths?
[16:56] Alex: I don't get it
[16:56] Girl: (don't bother reading it in full detail)
[16:56] Alex: like, I understand the ostensible reason
[16:56] Girl: basically
[16:56] Alex: for being upset
[16:56] Alex: though it's obviously stupid
[16:56] Girl: they did a very bad, mocking job of it
[16:56] Girl: and the russian team hasn't helped themselves
[16:56] Girl: by saying things like "her dog picked the music"
[16:56] Alex: LOL
[16:56] Girl: which is frankly quite insulting
[16:56] Alex: well it could be true
[16:57] Girl: (and i guess the aboriginals tend to be more closed off and sheltered than most cultures)
[16:57] Girl: yeah but that's not something you tell the media when you already have people blasting you for being culturally insensitive
[16:57] Alex: in general I am skeptical and unsympathetic to "THEY ARE MOCKING OUR CULTURE" complaints
[16:57] Alex: see: the danish cartoons in 05
[16:57] Girl: i'm not
[16:57] Alex: this is really pretty: http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/9363990.jpg
[16:59] Alex: if you prefer to remain on topic: my culture is constantly and mercilessly mocked (by me included). I'm used to it.
[17:01] Girl: i don't think most of the world is like that, to be honest
[17:01] Girl: i think that's rather unique to america
[17:01] Alex: I strongly disagree.
[17:01] Alex: I would agree that it is mostly unique to OECD nations.
[17:01] Girl: what is OECD?
[17:02] Alex: organisation for economic cooperation and development - roughly, the West + Japan + Korea
[17:02] Girl: that's not been my experience with japanese and korean people at all
[17:02] Alex: hm, it includes turkey, I'd remove that
[17:02] Alex: yeah, I'm sure it is less true of japan/korea
[17:03] Alex: but this trope is pretty common throughout the developed world
[17:03] Alex: and it's healthy
[17:03] Girl: i'm afraid i have to disagree with that
[17:03] Alex: a critical approach to your own culture
[17:03] Alex: that it's healthy?
[17:03] Girl: yes
[17:04] Girl: i cannot begin to express how strongly i disagree with that
[17:04] Alex: a critical approach to your own culture has numerous benefits
[17:04] Girl: honestly, my hands are shaking here
[17:04] * Alex is thinking
[17:05] Girl: it's not that people shouldn't be critical of their own cultures
[17:05] Girl: it's that you shouldn't be openly mocking of another culture
[17:05] Girl: here let me try and explain
[17:05] Girl: the reason the russian aboriginal dance has generated such huge hoopla
[17:05] Alex: parody and satire are extremely effective forms of criticism
[17:05] Alex: but go on
[17:05] Girl: while there's another dance team, actually, at the exact same time, also doing an aboriginal dance
[17:05] Girl: is because the other team actually took the effort to research what aboriginal culture is about
[17:05] Girl: and modeled their dance appropriately
[17:05] Girl: the russians just come off as mocking
[17:06] Girl: and yes, that's extremely insulting
[17:06] Alex: now, I don't know the specifics of the russian dance
[17:06] Alex: and I'm totally open to the idea
[17:06] Alex: that their particular dance was actually insulting
[17:06] Alex: with no real benefit
[17:06] Alex: [i.e. it did not contain any real critique]
[17:07] Alex: but the point is that a culture that is highly self-critical
[17:07] Alex: won't usually get very upset
[17:07] Alex: when someone goes beyond those bounds
[17:07] Girl: and i think they should
[17:07] Girl: (get upset)
[17:07] Alex: I don't see the point
[17:08] Alex: if and when people upset me
[17:08] Alex: *insult
[17:08] Alex: me, personally
[17:08] Alex: I typically shrug it off
[17:08] Girl: insulting you personally is not the same thing as insulting your culture
[17:08] Girl: and where you come from
[17:08] Girl: and what makes you who you are
[17:08] Girl: it's not the same thing at all
[17:08] Alex: but I don't get mad when people do ANY of those things
[17:09] Girl: but most people will if you insult their culture
[17:09] Girl: and i think that's completely justified
[17:09] Girl: and should be so
[17:09] Alex: I think you'll find that most americans, and most frenchmen, most spaniards and germans and norwegians and canadians
[17:09] Alex: will not get mad
[17:09] Girl: can i ask a question?
[17:10] Girl: are you insinuating that this is a defect of poorer, undeveloped countries?
[17:10] Alex: that someone, somewhere, made an insensitive, mocking depiction of a part of their culture
[17:10] Girl: (and i don't think that's true... just based on my own experience)
[17:10] Alex: I'm trying to figure out how to explain this
[17:10] Alex: I believe there in fact _is_ a strong correlation
[17:10] Alex: but it's along the lines of
[17:11] Alex: being poor and undeveloped
[17:11] Alex: -> less, how do you put it, internal communication?
[17:11] Alex: like, the US has a massive sphere of public debate
[17:11] Girl: how do you explain people that come out of those countries, go to these so-called "developed, western" countries, and choose to go back?
[17:11] Alex: poorer countries necessarily have a smaller one because they have to spend more time and energy producing necessities
[17:12] Girl: because they prefer it the way it is where they come from?
[17:12] Alex: how is that inconsistent with my thesis?
[17:12] Girl: because you're making it sound like
[17:12] Girl: after people "Get out" of their so called poor, underdeveloped, lack of communication country
[17:12] Girl: they should be able to see how it's so much better
[17:13] Girl: in the "western world"
[17:13] Alex: I don't think that follows
[17:13] Alex: well, for one
[17:13] Girl: and therefore, be open to criticizing their own culture
[17:13] Alex: that actually _does happen_
[17:13] Alex: a substantial portion - the majority, I believe - of emigrants to Western countries
[17:13] Alex: stay
[17:13] Alex: mostly for economic reasons, of course
[17:14] Alex: but I suspect you will see higher incidence
[17:14] Alex: of cultural self-criticism
[17:14] Alex: among emigrants
[17:14] Alex: this is definitely true of cuban emigrants, for instance
[17:14] Alex: most of them (though slightly less so now) absolutely despise the Castro regime
[17:15] Alex: and are in fact the political base of support for the embargo
[17:15] Alex: but yes, plenty of people who emigrate
[17:15] Alex: retain their original culture
[17:15] Alex: and its perspectives
[17:15] Alex: they were raised in it
[17:15] Alex: it's not surprising
[17:15] Girl: i just can't understand how you can say that it's beneficial and should be acceptable for the more developed western countries to criticize other countries cultures
[17:15] Alex: even the children of emigrants were
[17:16] Girl: when they have never been part of it, or lived there, or taken part in it
[17:16] Alex: I think it's beneficial for a culture
[17:16] Girl: and how that's healthy
[17:16] Alex: to criticize itself
[17:16] Alex: and to not get worked up
[17:16] Alex: over other people saying mean things about it
[17:16] Alex: I mean, on the individual level this is obviously true - it's a virtue to remain calm even if people say mean things about you
[17:16] Alex: and I think it extends to entire cultures as well
[17:16] Alex: I mean, in 2005
[17:16] Girl: alex
[17:16] Girl: i am going to be completely
[17:16] Alex: some danish cartoonists
[17:17] Girl: perfectly
[17:17] Girl: honest here
[17:17] Girl: i don't think i can talk to you for a couple of days after this conversation
[17:17] Alex: I'm sorry about that
[17:17] Girl: because i'm so, incredibly, angry
[17:17] Alex: I don't think I've insulted you, or Chinese culture
[17:17] Girl: you don't realize it but you do
[17:17] Girl: and you don't think it's insulting
[17:17] Girl: and you think i should just suck it up and get over it
[17:17] Girl: that's why
[17:18] Girl: like i am sitting here right now with tears streaming down my face and my hands shaking because i am SO ANGRY
[17:18] Alex: I'm sorry about that
[17:18] Alex:

tl;dr: I think it's good to be able to make fun of your culture, and not get mad when other people do so; I also point out that it's widespread among Western cultures.

I think I've set forth my argument pretty neutrally. I honestly believe this, and think it's reasonably well supported by evidence.

We've had something like this as an issue I think once, maybe twice before in the five years we've known each other. Note that I'm not particularly seeking the issue out. I'm not interested in lying about my beliefs, so is "we shouldn't talk about this, it will only result in hurt feelings" the only response if this ever comes up again?

[Drake Tungsten]

Dude, Asians are super touchy about perceived insults to their nations and their national honor. Just look at someone like QCubed, who's normally a perfectly rational human being but morphs into an aggrieved victim who thinks white people are all offensive ethnocentrists when he hears the word "Oriental". You need to realize that people from other cultures don't think like us and apologize to your friend. Sure, she's overreacting and you're right, but apologizing will save you a lot of grief.

[Wiglaf]

This sort of thing is precisely why I stopped pranking my gay neighbor for his sexuality. This woman, like many, seems to actively seek ways to get upset, to the point that the mere idea of someone challenging her beliefs (or presumably her borked culture) in a civil fashion triggers a state of PMS.

[Kuciwalker]

1) I didn't even mention China, it's just not in my partial enumeration of countries that hate themselves - which she openly agrees with!
2) I've apologized as far as I can without actually lying to her, and I'm pretty sure she's smart enough to know it would be totally insincere if I said "I'm sorry I said those things". I could say "I'm sorry I said those things out loud", but I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be taken well...

edit: xpost, and damn drake is fast at swapping out accounts

[BlackCat]

That girl is simply racist. Don't waste time on her.

Edit: well, more like : keep on telling why she is wrong.

[Wiglaf]

Girl: i just can't understand how you can say that it's beneficial and should be acceptable for the more developed western countries to criticize other countries cultures

I cannot stand this girl and I don't even know anything else about her. I'd suggest blocking her after showing her this video:

[Drake Tungsten]

I didn't even mention China, it's just not in my partial enumeration of countries that hate themselves - which she openly agrees with!

Doesn't matter. As soon as you mentioned the OECD, you had excluded China and implied that they were in the great unwashed mass of "poor and undeveloped" countries. There's no surer way to piss of the Chinese than to imply that their country is poor and undeveloped. It is, but they really don't want to hear that.

I've apologized as far as I can without actually lying to her, and I'm pretty sure she's smart enough to know it would be totally insincere if I said "I'm sorry I said those things".

Dude, lie to her. If you haven't learned how to make an obvious lie sound sincere by now, this is a good opportunity to practice. It's an extremely valuable skill.

[DinoDoc]

There's no surer way to piss of the Chinese than to imply that their country is poor and undeveloped. It is, but they really don't want to hear that.

Given the fact that she's been in the US since she was 9 months old, doesn't she kinda loose the right to claim China as being her country?

[Drake Tungsten]

Given the fact that she's been in the US since she was 9 months old, doesn't she kinda loose the right to claim China as being her country?

No. It probably makes her more defensive, since the China she's defending in her mind is an idealized one that someone who actually grew up in China would never take seriously.

[MrFun]

Great - so tell her she can head back to China as quickly as she wants to, if she idealizes China so much.

[BlackCat]

Given the fact that she's been in the US since she was 9 months old, doesn't she kinda loose the right to claim China as being her country?

No. It probably makes her more defensive, since the China she's defending in her mind is an idealized one that someone who actually grew up in China would never take seriously.

Mods, please check Drakes acces, someone has clearly hijacked his account - he has posted something sensible that I can agree with

[Ben Kenobi]

Kuci, it's only an Anglosphere phenomenon, restricted to Australia, New Zealand, USA, Britain, (including Ireland and Scotland), and Canada.

The whole tradition of a roast etc, that's all on the Brits. That British culture is mocked internally is pretty much a feature of this culture.

Go to any other culture, or subculture in either, and you do not see this. Not even in Svealand, or even in Holland. People are really touchy even in most of Europe. You see it here, particularly with first nations people (who are incredibly touchy!), among the French (don't even go there), and with any of the immigrant communities.

[Ben Kenobi]

No. It probably makes her more defensive, since the China she's defending in her mind is an idealized one that someone who actually grew up in China would never take seriously.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other. It depends on how much of the west she's taken on, I'd have to grill Kuci for a bit.

[DanS]

There's no surer way to piss of the Chinese than to imply that their country is poor and undeveloped. It is, but they really don't want to hear that.

I totally see your point. But it should be noted that the Chinese themselves (including their gov't up to and including their president) describe their country in such ways -- perhaps in part to avoid the wrath of the public when they do something unpopular.

[DaShi]

Given the fact that she's been in the US since she was 9 months old, doesn't she kinda loose the right to claim China as being her country?

No. It probably makes her more defensive, since the China she's defending in her mind is an idealized one that someone who actually grew up in China would never take seriously.

This is often true. The most defensive Asians that I've met have all been Asian-Americans. Usually Koreans. Many of the Chinese I've met in China were reasonably critical of the problems with their government and social system, but just felt powerless to do anything. Those who weren't were usually bat**** crazy and not worth further speaking to about it (like arguing with Ben).