Top 10 Anti-Christian Acts of 2009

[Ben Kenobi]

my argument is that Jesus would not support a govt ban on abortion

Do you have any evidence for this beside your own opinion? It's not enough to say, "Jesus says nothing about this," where does he say that people should not be punished for getting abortions?

[onodera]

Do you have any evidence for this beside your own opinion? It's not enough to say, "Jesus says nothing about this," where does he say that people should not be punished for getting abortions?

Uh, because he tells everyone to forgive and love all people, be they virtuous people, people who get abortions or Al-Qaeda?

[Ben Kenobi]

That's true.

He also says that about Murderers. Does this mean we should have no laws at all because Christ tells us to forgive?

[Berzerker]

Do you have any evidence for this beside your own opinion? It's not enough to say, "Jesus says nothing about this," where does he say that people should not be punished for getting abortions?

Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. That involved an adulteress and her punishment was the death penalty. Where does he say they should be punished? You used a quote about him with children, but he didn't say it should be illegal for people to keep their children away from him. And children aint the unborn. I dont think the Jews believed life began at conception, or at least afforded legal protection that early. And it was his followers who tried to prevent those children from approaching Jesus, does that mean they are suffering the punishment? Course not, but how can Jesus punish others for doing the same thing? I dont even think the two are analogous, the various goals of an abortion dont include a desire to keep a child from meeting Jesus.

That's true.

He also says that about Murderers. Does this mean we should have no laws at all because Christ tells us to forgive?

Good question Ben, you kinda made my point - you cant use Jesus as the basis for a legal system.

Remember Reginald Denny? He was the trucker nearly beat to death by several thugs after the Rodney King decision. He walked into their court appearance and forgave them and asked the judge to let them go. He converted because he lived and he did what Jesus told him to do, he forgave them. Denny was criticized, no, he was ridiculed and trashed by noted Christians Rush Limbaugh, Jerry Falwell etc. To his credit, Pat Robertson shook his head in disbelief but acknowledged thats what Jesus said. How do you jail someone you just forgave? You cant...

Can you really see Jesus putting millions of women in cages as murderers? Seriously?

[Darius871]

Can you really see Jesus putting millions of women in cages as murderers? Seriously?

Is anyone seriously advocating that anyway? Wouldn't the only significant consequence of overturning Roe be some bans in the Bible Belt and women from there crossing state lines to get the carvejobs where they'd undoubtedly remain legal?

[SlowwHand]

That's true.

He also says that about Murderers. Does this mean we should have no laws at all because Christ tells us to forgive?

This is where, to me, the water gets muddy.
Forgive. Turn the other cheek. I can understand the concept. The meek shall inherit the earth. OK, take it.
Where my question occurs is at what point, if any, is enough...enough.
This is one of those questions I need to ask somewhere besides here.

[Ben Kenobi]

Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. That involved an adulteress and her punishment was the death penalty. Where does he say they should be punished?

He says that throughout the NT, that unrepentent sinners will be punished by God, who is capable of judging these things. What does he say to the adulteress, he says, "Go and sin no more." Implying that she knows that she did wrong.

You used a quote about him with children, but he didn't say it should be illegal for people to keep their children away from him. And children aint the unborn.

You miss the part where the bible says, "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you?" There's no difference between children in the womb, and those outside the womb. When Christ says "Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them," is not abortion keeping his children from reaching out to Him in the world?

I dont think the Jews believed life began at conception, or at least afforded legal protection that early.

Scripture in Exodus accords them the same protection as anyone else. "If the woman be harmed, and the child die, then you will take life for life, hand for hand, eye for eye, etc." There's no distinction drawn between life in the womb and life outside the womb.

"And it was his followers who tried to prevent those children from approaching Jesus, does that mean they are suffering the punishment?"

Christ says that it will be better for murderers in the life to come then those who lead children astray.

the various goals of an abortion dont include a desire to keep a child from meeting Jesus.

What is the goal of an abortion? You prevent the child from being born and from coming to know him. Whether you intend to or not, the result is to prevent children from coming to Jesus.

Good question Ben, you kinda made my point - you cant use Jesus as the basis for a legal system.

You miss the point. God, in Leviticus lays out a legal code, with punishments for Israel. Christ also tells Pilate that he has God-given authority over the people, and that he could do nothing if it were not given to him by God. Remember that. God is very strict on his people, and his laws are very clear. Do not murder. You are wrong to suggest that Jesus is not to be the basis of the legal system, for our system is based on him and his tenets. If we argue there should be no legal penalty for murder, etc, then we are saying that Christ does not permit the rule of any lawful authority. This we do not see. Christ rather affirms their authority while challenging them to recognise that His is greater and the source of their own.

Remember Reginald Denny? He was the trucker nearly beat to death by several thugs after the Rodney King decision. He walked into their court appearance and forgave them and asked the judge to let them go. He converted because he lived and he did what Jesus told him to do, he forgave them. Denny was criticized, no, he was ridiculed and trashed by noted Christians Rush Limbaugh, Jerry Falwell etc. To his credit, Pat Robertson shook his head in disbelief but acknowledged thats what Jesus said. How do you jail someone you just forgave? You cant...

Forgiveness doesn't absolve one from restitution.

Can you really see Jesus putting millions of women in cages as murderers? Seriously?

Oh puhleeze.

1. What are these cages? Obvious hyperbole. Are you arguing that prisons are cages now? What, should we release everyone?

2. Who's suggesting that we arrest the women? Are they the one killing their child in their own womb? If I were to hire someone to kill you, am I the one who has committed murder? No.

All I'm saying is that the hired killers, the ones who profit from abortion are the ones who need to be arrested. The women are the second victims here, because they die or are mutilated in abortions.

[Berzerker]

Is anyone seriously advocating that anyway? Wouldn't the only significant consequence of overturning Roe be some bans in the Bible Belt and women from there crossing state lines to get the carvejobs where they'd undoubtedly remain legal?

Yes, and they wanna ban abortion in all the states with or without an amendment

[SlowwHand]

I'm against abortion as a means of birth control. Totally unacceptable.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

I never understood why some people are so concerned about gay rights.
I am not gay, I cannot even see how a male can like to have something inside his body.
But some men do. Do they harm the community? I say no. Don't put them in a guettho, that's the sure way to create enemies, now days terrorists.

Oh my god.

Gay terrorists.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

So? He's a Muslim.

I just want to point out, that every time you say that, you are bearing false witness. And as you continue to say it, you will be continuing to bear false witness.

I don't expect you to change. I just want to remind you, as someone who professes to have such great faith, that you routinely break one of the Big Ten.

[Berzerker]

He says that throughout the NT, that unrepentent sinners will be punished by God, who is capable of judging these things. What does he say to the adulteress, he says, "Go and sin no more." Implying that she knows that she did wrong.

We aint God, you're arguing that we can and should punish people based on who Jesus said will be punished on Judgement Day (what happened to salvation and forgiveness?). Yes, adultery is wrong - and according to Jesus, it should be legal. Thats the point...

You miss the part where the bible says, "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you?" There's no difference between children in the womb, and those outside the womb. When Christ says "Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them," is not abortion keeping his children from reaching out to Him in the world?

But the Jews did not afford legal protection to the conceived, women had to show signs of pregnancy. As for what God knew, God didn't even know Adam and Eve ate the apple until she was pregnant. And abortion aint about preventing children from talking to Jesus. Jesus

Scripture in Exodus accords them the same protection as anyone else. "If the woman be harmed, and the child die, then you will take life for life, hand for hand, eye for eye, etc." There's no distinction drawn between life in the womb and life outside the womb.

The Jews made a distinction between a developed fetus and conception, you're confusing the two

Christ says that it will be better for murderers in the life to come then those who lead children astray.

You didn't answer my question: are his followers suffering that fate?

What is the goal of an abortion?

It aint to prevent a a child from talking to Jesus

You prevent the child from being born and from coming to know him. Whether you intend to or not, the result is to prevent children from coming to Jesus.

Intent matters, a woman having an abortion to save her life aint doin it so a kid wont hear Jesus. The analogy is invalid...

You miss the point. God, in Leviticus lays out a legal code, with punishments for Israel.

Thats Israel, not Jesus - I thought you believed Jesus was grace and not the law?

Christ also tells Pilate that he has God-given authority over the people, and that he could do nothing if it were not given to him by God.

Well that opens a bag of worms... Jesus had God's authority and we no longer live under a "divinely" mandated monarchy.

Remember that. God is very strict on his people, and his laws are very clear. Do not murder. You are wrong to suggest that Jesus is not to be the basis of the legal system, for our system is based on him and his tenets.

That aint true, we have all sorts of laws having absolutely nothing to do with Jesus. Where are his teachings in our laws?

If we argue there should be no legal penalty for murder, etc, then we are saying that Christ does not permit the rule of any lawful authority. This we do not see. Christ rather affirms their authority while challenging them to recognise that His is greater and the source of their own.

Where did Jesus advocate democracy? We dont have a king, so how can you say our system is based on Jesus?

Forgiveness doesn't absolve one from restitution.

Yes it does, forgiveness means wiping the slate clean. What do you think it means? God will forgive your trespasses and throw you into the lake of fire?

Oh puhleeze.

1. What are these cages?

Jail cells?

Obvious hyperbole. Are you arguing that prisons are cages now? What, should we release everyone?

Prisons are cages, yes. And you say women should be punished for having abortions, its murder!!! Thats either the death penalty or life in prison - in a cage - for millions of women.

2. Who's suggesting that we arrest the women? Are they the one killing their child in their own womb? If I were to hire someone to kill you, am I the one who has committed murder? No.

You are suggesting we arrest women, you said its murder and murderers should be punished. And yes, if you hire someone to commit murder, you are a murderer - Hitler murdered millions without actually pulling the trigger.

All I'm saying is that the hired killers, the ones who profit from abortion are the ones who need to be arrested. The women are the second victims here, because they die or are mutilated in abortions.

And calling abortion murder and then blaming only the people who perform the abortions is a transparent cop out. So does that mean you dont want to punish women for having abortions? That would be a change in your stated policy

[Ben Kenobi]

I just want to point out, that every time you say that, you are bearing false witness. And as you continue to say it, you will be continuing to bear false witness.

When he chooses a church and attends services, I'll be happy to recant. Otherwise, I'll continue calling him a Muslim to his face.

Oh, btw, I've also called him the first Kenyan as well. You might want to ask him for his birth certificate too while you are at it.

[Darius871]

Yes, and they wanna ban abortion in all the states with or without an amendment

Seeing as even the Commerce Clause could never be construed broadly enough to ban that nationally, what they "want" isn't much of a threat. I'm sure they'd like to have a majority in each of the 50 states...

[Ben Kenobi]

Yes, and they wanna ban abortion in all the states with or without an amendment

Yes, the argument is that it's no different than slavery, denying the personhood of the unborn is no different then denying the personhood of the slaves.