Religion thread Zaku DL vs Ben Kenobi

[SlowwHand]

I don't believe in Big Bang operating of it's own energy. If I were to consider at all Big Bang, something initiated the matter that was involved and the energy that was expended. Taking it further, I have absolutely no belief at all that a Big Bang could produce the intrinsic creations of life. I don't believe that things "just are".

[Lorizael]

Why does that matter? Tolerance is good as it allows humans to come to their own conclusions and beliefs about their existence after searching their emotions and coming to some ideals. Why should intrinsic value be worth any more than the value that we have given something?

Why should the value you have given something be worth anything at all? The only things we can positively say are valuable are those things which are objectively defined as being so. All other definitions are motivated by something other than truth value and, as such, are suspect.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Slowwy: I realize that, but what I was asking is if part of your faith is due to your feeling the presense of God or Jesus or whatever in your own life, through some sort of emotional connection. Or did you just not need that to believe and have faith?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Why should the value you have given something be worth anything at all? The only things we can positively say are valuable are those things which are objectively defined as being so. All other definitions are motivated by something other than truth value and, as such, are suspect.

This, of course, all depends on whether you believe in 'truth' being objectively defined.

[SlowwHand]

Slowwy: I realize that, but what I was asking is if part of your faith is due to your feeling the presense of God or Jesus or whatever in your own life, through some sort of emotional connection. Or did you just not need that to believe and have faith?

Absolutely I feel God in my life. I have a daughter, and a grandson.
I don't understand how one can have these things and not have faith in God.
God is love. God is compassion. God definitely doesn't scare me.

[Lorizael]

This, of course, all depends on whether you believe in 'truth' being objectively defined.

Of course truth is objectively defined. That is to say, the truth that is objectively defined is. Subjective truth is clearly not objective.

No, my statement does not depend on truth being objective; it depends on objectivity being meaningful.

[Guynemer]

Duuuuuuude.

Suddenly I'm back in my freshman dorm, listening to my floormates bull**** with each other at 3AM in the lounge.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Absolutely I feel God in my life. I have a daughter, and a grandson.
I don't understand how one can have these things and not have faith in God.
God is love. God is compassion. God definitely doesn't scare me.

Well that's what I mean. I know some people in my life (including my girlfriend) have said that at certain junctures in their life have felt a greater presence which has helped them believe. Of course one can say if you feel you have proof (that presence), how does faith apply?

[Lorizael]

Duuuuuuude.

Suddenly I'm back in my freshman dorm, listening to my floormates bull**** with each other at 3AM in the lounge.

Yes, most people never take "bull****" like this seriously because they've already implicitly made the assumption that the collection of thoughts they identify as self is valuable.

[DaShi]

Yes, that is true. But does faith require a complete abandoning of proof at all, or is some proof (I'm speaking emotionally) required? I mean, for you particularly, but you can expand if you'd like.

I think the question is why have faith in one pile of bull**** over another.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Well that, apprently, is up to each person. Which sounds better, touches you more, or that your parents/peers like?

[Ben Kenobi]

Yes, that is true. But does faith require a complete abandoning of proof at all, or is some proof (I'm speaking emotionally) required? I mean, for you particularly, but you can expand if you'd like.

No, not at all.

Couple things here. Reason is a valuable tool, but a river cannot rise higher than it's source. God isn't so much contrary to reason, but beyond it. He gave us our minds and our capacity to reason.

WRT to proof, I consider the historical evidence in favour of Christianity to be more true than anything else we have. I'm not a nihilist and unwilling to give up my confidence in the historical evidence we do possess, therefore I have no choice but to accept Christianity as true.

Once I think you accept both of these principles, it's pretty clear where you are going to go. WRT to 'emotional', it's like you are clinging onto the side of a cliff. Faith is letting go of that cliff, even though everything else tells you that you need to hold on. Some make that leap, others never do.

WRT to a presence, yes, I've felt him at times. I've also felt other 'presences' that are not God, but I really don't like talking bout those very much.

[Ben Kenobi]

Since this is my thread, I like the new direction of it but I want to take one more post to reply to Jeleen.

Thanks guys!

But whereas evolution theory can be described as a scientific theory, God-directed evolution cannot, as it is neither verifiable or falsifiable

Neither is Darwinism. He makes no predictions. He never says, "this is how animals are going to adapt", because he simply doesn't know. It isn't falsifiable.

I would describe the attitude of - most notably Christian - religion in this case hardly as advocating science, as you claimed earlier.

Christians are fine with science. Christians have a problem with religion masquerading as science, as Darwinism can be, or environmentalism Gorebaloney. You ask the right questions. Is it falsifiable? No. Can it be replicated in a lab? No.

[DaShi]

Neither is Darwinism. He makes no predictions. He never says, "this is how animals are going to adapt", because he simply doesn't know. It isn't falsifiable.

If you believe that, why choose god over Darwinism?

[Imran Siddiqui]

WRT to proof, I consider the historical evidence in favour of Christianity to be more true than anything else we have. I'm not a nihilist and unwilling to give up my confidence in the historical evidence we do

I think I more meant proof in a spritual way. Like you later stated, feeling his presense. To me, the more post-modern ways of Christian thinking are more appealing (ie, faith is a personal subjective relationship, not something handed down in an objective fashion... which I realize is more Protestant than Catholic, but there you go), but also seem to indicate that a presence is required... of some fashion.