227 year old zombie to testify in a court.

[Ben Kenobi]

Don't you think that if she had family, it'd collect this land in the 100 years between here disappearance and expulsions of germans from the city?

Uh, Bromberg wasn't cleansed until after Stalin rolled through with the red army in '44. You've only had private property, by my reckoning since '89 at best and '92 at worst.

Why? Entire south Prussia were prussian citizens of polish origin, speaking polish, having polish surnames etc. Your forefathers were Germans of polish origin, at best.

OstPreuben. And no, they were places in the cities that were primarily German, even at the turn of the century, and this includes Ortelsburg. Your own map proved this to be so. I'll concede that the southern part of OstPreuben in the countryside, particularly close to the Masurian lakes was predominantly Polish.

[Heresson]

Uh, Bromberg wasn't cleansed until after Stalin rolled through with the red army in '44. You've only had private property, by my reckoning since '89 at best and '92 at worst.

There are two mistakes in your post.
One is about private property: we've had private property in the communist Poland. Of course we did. There was much state property, collective property, but private property existed as well.
Secondly, you didn't get the point
The lady is missing since 1847 or so. So her probable german family had 100 years, until being possibly expelled in 1944/5, to claim the property.

And no, they were places in the cities that were primarily German, even at the turn of the century, and this includes Ortelsburg. Your own map proved this to be so. I'll concede that the southern part of OstPreuben in the countryside, particularly close to the Masurian lakes was predominantly Polish.

You are aware that
1) even in those predominantly german cities there was a polish-speaking minority
2) german census counted people declaring knowledge of two languages, polish and german, as Germans automatically, which means the presence of polish language was even more common than this official map shows.
3) polish language was in decline there. 50 years earlier, the map would show more polish language, and 50 earlier even more. This was a quick process of adapting german language by people in the border regions due to the state policies.
4) it is very unlikely that a person with clear german ancestry would get a polish surname.

Also, I've provided you with the example of Jerzy Ollech, a polish pastor from Szczepankowo next to Szczytno / Ortelsburg, living in 1757-1820. And he undoubtly not only knew polish, but was in contact with polish intellectual elite of these days and was an admirer of polish literature. He's most likely your distant relative. The name fits, the geographical area fits precisely. You should get over it: your ancestors may have been Germans. They were Germans when they were living East Prussia for USA, Canada or wherever. But their own ancestors, living in the beginning of XIX century, were polish.

Szczepankowo is 12,5 km from Szczytno

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=pl&geocode=&q=Szczepankowo+%28powiat+szczycie%C5%84ski%29,+Polska&ie=UTF8&ll=53.736417,20.9795&spn=0,0&z=12

and, as the aforementioned map suggests, there are still some of your relatives living in Poland, as Ollech surname still shows up on the maps of polish surnames in this area.

[Ben Kenobi]

The lady is missing since 1847 or so. So her probable german family had 100 years, until being possibly expelled in 1944/5, to claim the property.

Well would they even have the proper records going back from then? There's been many hands.

4) it is very unlikely that a person with clear german ancestry would get a polish surname.

Wilhelmina was my great grandmother, and my great grandfather was Augustus. Those aren't Polish names.

[Ben Kenobi]

He's most likely your distant relative.

Maybe, I don't know. It's the wrong village from my immediate family which I've not posted here.

[Heresson]

Well would they even have the proper records going back from then?

They would, unless they were destroyed during the war.

Wilhelmina was my great grandmother, and my great grandfather was Augustus. Those aren't Polish names.

People from this area, even if they were professed Poles, didn't bear "polish" names, but typical prussian / german names, for example Erwin Kruk, who was a masurian activist in communist Poland. You wouldn't find many Erwins outside Masuria. In Upper Silesia, typical names are different too: Alojz, Joachim... not really used by Poles from other regions. It's not anything amazing. Anyway, there were some Wilhelminas in Poland, for example this lady:

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelmina_Iwanowska

and there were thousands of Augusts. That the name was written in a german form is nothing special, after all these were Germans who were the officials. Even Wojciech Korfanty, leader of polish uprisings in Silesia, was really "Adalbert", not Wojciech (Wojciech translates as Adalbert for some reason).

Even if they had been Germans themselves, which their names do not prove, they could be of polish origin.

[Ben Kenobi]

The village is close, but on the wrong side of Ortelsburg. My family lived about the same distance but to the east of the city.

[Nikolai]

Well would they even have the proper records going back from then? There's been many hands.

It's not that long ago, American.

[Heresson]

The village is close, but on the wrong side of Ortelsburg. My family lived about the same distance but to the east of the city.

So the distance between them would be only 18 km or so. Still looks like the same family.
Also, if your family lived 12,5 km east from Szczytno / Ortelsburg, they lived in a +75% polish territory, according to the previous map.

which, together with their polish surname, indicates clearly their polish origin.

[Ben Kenobi]

Nikolai, it's really hard to trace records anywhere the Red Army rolled over. It seems to be a feature.

indicates clearly their polish origin.

You know, I honestly find it hilarious you claim they are poles. They spoke German. Only German. Why do you care so much?

[Heresson]

I don't claim they were Poles. I claim they were of polish origin, which makes you of polish origin as well. If someone is named Ol(l)ech, and comes from an area +75% polish-speaking, there's little chance he's not of polish origin. The same, all those 99% procent polish, 99% roman-catholic villages in eastern Poland don't want to even think they are of polish origin, even if their surnames have -uk or -ko endings, which most likely indicate ruthenian origin. The same is with many people coming from territories that were, at least once, polish: they are so strongly attached to their german identity that they ignore obvious fact that their ancestors were polish generations ago.

But why are you so sure they spoke german only? It's really doubtful, actually. They come from an area over 75% polish, and don't know any polish at all?

If I care this much, it is because it makes your ueberdeutsche revisionist political claims about Poles having to leave Silesia, western pomerania and Masuria silly.

[bumfister]

That place sucks. Why even fight over it?

[Heresson]

Masuria is probably the poorest and least developed region in Poland, but it has nice lakes.

[duke o' york]

Zombies to lakes in a single thread. 'poly is the greatestest.

[Ben Kenobi]

But why are you so sure they spoke german only?

Because of what my grandfather and father have said, and they both knew them well. German. No Polish, just German. This is what I am trying and have been trying to tell you. They considered themselves to be German.

It's really doubtful, actually. They come from an area over 75% polish, and don't know any polish at all?

The family, after the war scattered and lives primarily in Hamburg, etc. They did not go to Warsaw or behind the iron curtain, and nor did they stay. This to me says they all considered themselves German.

If I care this much, it is because it makes your ueberdeutsche revisionist political claims about Poles having to leave Silesia, western pomerania and Masuria silly.

So the origin of one man, makes a stain on Polish heritage run clean? Seriously. I'm mad enough the Russians destroyed things, the poles are better than the Russians, and they should have simply said no.

[Heresson]

Ben, as I've told you thousand times, I do not claim your immediate ancestors were polish. Just that they were of polish origin, and in the beginning of XIX century and earlier probably spoke and were polish by language etc, not german. Which means that you're not of "german" origin, but "german and polish" origin.

the poles are better than the Russians, and they should have simply said no.

As if they had a choice. My grandfather didn't want to leave his hometown in modern Ukraine, and refused to take money compensation for lost property, because he believed he'd go back there. But he was forced out of there, and settled in formerly german home. Should he have lived in the street to protest against the decisions made by Stalin? Polish gouverment in exile was against changing the border as well, apart from Upper Silesia, Slupsk/Stolp, East Prussia and several villages next to the border. We've already had this discussion.

What you need to know is that changing the border today or exiling people living there would be similar to exiling Jews from israel back to Europe and Arab countries.