"Thou Shall Have No Other Gods Before Me"

[MikeH]

If God had wanted us to think he'd have given us large brains.

Why he didn't give us bigger pelvises to let our big heads come out better and make childbirth easier we'll never know.

[ZEE]

because women are supposed to suffer for all time because of some dumb **** some umpteenth-thousand year old dead chick did

[Traianvs]

While it is true that many of the children of Israel apostatised and worshipped the great calf and other gods, it's not true that Judaism was polytheistic.

That's semantics. While the worship of Yahweh by definition cannot be polytheistic, people living in the Middle-East in ancient times did believe in other gods, therefore their religion can be described under the broad term 'polytheistic'. But those worshipping Yahweh in early times did accept the existance of other gods. Traders on a mission to other cities would pay their respects to the local city god, as was custom in the ancient world. That includes Jews, yes.

Much like the Jews, other tribes gradually came to worship a single deity as well. In fact tendencies towards monotheism were widespread in Mesopotamia (and even Egypt) back in those days. Several cities claimed a certain god in the vast pantheon do be their city or patron god, usually in accordance with mythical stories. Sumerian Enki (or Ea) in Eridu for example, or the well known Marduk in Babylon.

Judaism was simply the first religion to make the final step in denouncing the existence of other deities.

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob all worshipped the same God, YHWH, and Judaism is very clear on this that there is only one God.

Be careful as not to conflate history, especially because the final compilation of the bible was made fairly late. The chapters were constantly being modified according to new creeds and influences fused into Judaism. So Abraham, Isaac and Jacob all worshipped the same kind of god, but as these are mythical tales, it's difficult to reconstruct the original versions of these stories. According to the knowledge available now, the oldest Jewish ancestors believed in Yahweh as a desert god (before he was turned into the god of Jerusalem and then the god of the Jews in Palestine)

No, as the above shows. Exodus is part of the pentateuch and was written by Moses.

No...


An excellent reading would be 'Cultures of the Jews: A New History', edited and compiled by David Biale. It is somewhat detailed though, and assumes a good deal of knowledge about the region's history by the reader.

It focuses on the cultural history as well, rather than solely on the bare essentials of geography, royal lineages and other traditional 'history'.

[Jon Miller]

I cited my source in the same post that I made said assertion, you dumbass. And are you saying that all modern scholarship is worthless? Should people stop doing biblical research since they have no hope of convincing morons who believe that the bible is inerrant? "Welp, I was going to research which of the many biblical authors said what, and what scriptures were ultimately removed from the bible and when/why they were removed, and which biblical claims were supported or refuted by archaeological evidence, and which biblical scriptures coincide with those of neighboring religions, but alas, I wasn't born several hundred years ago so Ben won't listen to me "

When Jews became monotheistic has a lot of debate in scholarship. Many put it to influences of Egypt, because why would it be influences of a very polytheistic Babylon during captivity?

The idea that I had heard as far as the old testament was that there were several sources (P and D and so on), and many point to the 'finding the old scriptures' in Hezakaih's time to being one of the sources (and that there was an earlier one as well). The entire OT being developed at the time of Babylon is not a reasonable conclusion I think.

It is definitely true that many Jews before Babylon were polytheists (this is even recorded in the Bible). I don't think it can be answered with 100% assurance if there were monotheists before Babylon.

JM

[Jon Miller]

I would like to point out that a lot of Bible scholarship is like the 'finding old scriptures' bit. It reads that, and assumes that there was scripture which appeared to favor the new politics and that it wasn't inspired or that it wasn't actual old scriptures that were found. This is assuming against the traditional interpretation. Bible scholarship is not science, there does not exist experimental or observational evidences which can be used. Rather, it is a lot of guessing and assumptions and logic.

That isn't to say I think it should be ignored. But you can't say 'this is what scholars think, so this is what is right' the same way you can in physics or chemistry or biology.

JM

[Ben Kenobi]

That's semantics. While the worship of Yahweh by definition cannot be polytheistic, people living in the Middle-East in ancient times did believe in other gods, therefore their religion can be described under the broad term 'polytheistic'.

No question. Semitic peoples of all stripes had many different gods. However, there is a difference between the semitic people as a whole and the tribes of the Israelites, a distinction which is maintained throughout the ancient world.

But those worshipping Yahweh in early times did accept the existance of other gods. Traders on a mission to other cities would pay their respects to the local city god, as was custom in the ancient world. That includes Jews, yes.

Scripture talks about Dagon, and the account of the Philistines stealing the ark. The account refers to the submission of Dagon to the God of Israel. I think we have to be very careful when using the term of 'god' to refer to Dagon, rather then idol. Israelites may of course have bowed to foreign 'gods' as Solomon did, but such is contrary to Judaism which has always held there is only one God, YHWH.

Much like the Jews, other tribes gradually came to worship a single deity as well. In fact tendencies towards monotheism were widespread in Mesopotamia (and even Egypt) back in those days. Several cities claimed a certain god in the vast pantheon do be their city or patron god, usually in accordance with mythical stories. Sumerian Enki (or Ea) in Eridu for example, or the well known Marduk in Babylon.

Without question, this was the case. Please be clear, I'm not asserting that there was not religious plurality in the fertile quarter at the time. I am simply asserting that Judaism, by definition is monotheistic, and has always been so. Israelites certainly did stray, as they did with the golden calf, but such was considered apostasy.

Be careful as not to conflate history, especially because the final compilation of the bible was made fairly late.

According to whom? The Pentateuch is very old, which is where the account from Exodus, and is believed to date back to the time of Moses. The OT as a whole, was not compiled until the Septuagint, and included a great many books in addition to the Pentateuch. We have to treat the two as very different from one another in terms of compilation.

The chapters were constantly being modified according to new creeds and influences fused into Judaism.

While it is true that the earliest document we possess is prior to the time of Christ, the compilation date of the Pentateuch is much older, and the events within have been corroborated by archaelogical evidence. Of course, there are many mysteries still, and even some words which we don't correctly understand, and may not have been understood even in the time of Christ. To say that 'new creeds and influences' have been fused into Judaism, begs the question. Without reference to the earlier documents, we cannot confirm or deny such influence.

So Abraham, Isaac and Jacob all worshipped the same kind of god, but as these are mythical tales,

We have archaelogical evidence confirming many of the events recorded in the pentateuch. To refer to them as 'mythical tales', detracts from the hard work that has been done showing the contrary.

According to the knowledge available now, the oldest Jewish ancestors believed in Yahweh as a desert god (before he was turned into the god of Jerusalem and then the god of the Jews in Palestine)

Believed by whom?

No...

Who else composed them, and when?

It focuses on the cultural history as well, rather than solely on the bare essentials of geography, royal lineages and other traditional 'history'.

And why should we assume a modern account to be any less 'inflused' by the influences of today? The same sword cuts both ways.

[Ben Kenobi]

When Jews became monotheistic has a lot of debate in scholarship. Many put it to influences of Egypt, because why would it be influences of a very polytheistic Babylon during captivity?

Hmm? What do you mean by 'Jews'? The tribe of the Jews originated from Abraham, and from his son Isaac, and then later from his son Jacob, who founded the 12 tribes among his sons.

I'm not sure we are referring to the same thing. Prior to Abraham, there were no 'Jews'. There were semitic peoples throughout the near east. The submission of Abraham to YHWH is the origin of both the Jewish people and Judaism.

The idea that I had heard as far as the old testament was that there were several sources (P and D and so on), and many point to the 'finding the old scriptures' in Hezakaih's time to being one of the sources (and that there was an earlier one as well). The entire OT being developed at the time of Babylon is not a reasonable conclusion I think.

No, tradition has always stated that there were books written before the Babylonian exile, generally referred to the 5 books of Moses, plus perhaps a few others such as Job. That would be a fascinating discussion to go over the book of Job, and it's origins. Others such as Kings, Samuel and Chronicles were no doubt based on the records of the time which were still available.

It is definitely true that many Jews before Babylon were polytheists (this is even recorded in the Bible). I don't think it can be answered with 100% assurance if there were monotheists before Babylon.

They weren't Jews then, they were not a distinct tribe prior to Abraham leaving the place of his birth from Mesopotamia to Israel. I can't understand why this is so difficult to understand. The tribe of the Jews were formed by Abraham who submitted himself to YHWH.

[Ben Kenobi]

Loinburger:

I missed your citation.

"The great transformation"? by Karen Armstrong.

My apologies.

And are you saying that all modern scholarship is worthless?

Hardly. There is considerable modern evidence which supports scripture, especially archaelogy.

Karen Armstrong on the other hand has no more credentials then I do as a theologian. Her degree is in English, and not history. She has no professional qualifications as a theologian. You wouldn't cite a physicist without a doctorate, so you should be asking yourself, why would I trust someone who doesn't have the academic credentials to make her claims about the ancient world true?

Should people stop doing biblical research since they have no hope of convincing morons who believe that the bible is inerrant?

I'm saying that textual criticism is a relic of the Victorian era. I am not arguing that scripture is inerrant, I am simply arguing that scripture is the best source we have. If we want to know where the history of the Jews begins, we must first examine scripture, and then work outwards. The alternative is to dig through the sites we know about to find more direct evidence which isn't tainted by the distortions of time and opinion. Textual criticism is no better then the sources that they rely upon.

Anyways, I apologise. I did not first catch your reference.

[Ben Kenobi]

Actually there are several indications of polytheism in the bible texts, simply because Judaism as a unified religion didn't crystallize until well after Jesus' time.

Please cite the passages.

We have original documents dating to before the time of Christ in the dead sea scrolls, that go as far back as 150 years before Christ, which testify to the same thing I am saying here.

Today Judaism may be quite clear on the issue of monotheism, yes. The Pentateuch - commonly known as 'The Five Books of Moses' were actually written by several identifiable authors, none of them Moses; they weren't written until about the time of the Babylonian exile.

According to whom? Do they name these 'unknown' authors?

[Jon Miller]

Ben:

Rachel and the family of Abraham had idols to other gods. This was despite being the group that followed God, that Abraham's family kept going back to to get wives/etc.

Also, there was a lot more than just the golden calf. The whole history of Israel before the Babylon captivity, in the Bible, is one of polytheism. They had high places, they had Bhaal, they had Ashterath.

I do think it is true that there were some monotheists before the Babylonian captivity, and I think it is obvious that parts were written before then. But I also think that probably if you consider the people at all times who were in Israel, that overall they were polytheistic.

It does read, from the Bible, that many prophets like Elijah were monotheists. The whole 'one true God bit' was there.

JM

[Ben Kenobi]

Rachel and the family of Abraham had idols to other gods.

Well please quote where in the bible.

Also, there was a lot more than just the golden calf. The whole history of Israel before the Babylon captivity, in the Bible, is one of polytheism. They had high places, they had Bhaal, they had Ashterath.

Yes, but that's a far cry from saying that Israel were polytheists. Yes, they strayed away from Him, but this was no different before the exile then after.

It does read, from the Bible, that many prophets like Elijah were monotheists. The whole 'one true God bit' was there.

Quite an understatement. Elijah set fire to the priests of Baal.

[Sirotnikov]

That is exactly what they meant when first written. The ancient Hebrew for a long time tolerated the worship of multiple and local deities, as long as their national war god was preeminent. They moved more toward monotheism over a a period of centuries, a process not completed until their exile in Babylonia.

It its oldest face, that part of that "Word" (commandment) translates to "before my face", meaning the the physical symbols of other gods should be place behind his.

I agree with the first part, not the latter part.

Before me is actually written as 'over my face" in hebrew, and it is a standard expression that means "over me" as in "preferred over" or "chosen instead" and is never read into literally.

the expression should be read as "better than me" or "preferred over me" but is acceptable to use "instead of me", since that's a standard meaning as well. not versed enough how old is that use compared to the bible use.

I flow with the "other gods" being outranked by J explanation, but I really don't think it should be read into as physical placement.

[Sirotnikov]

Well please quote where in the bible.

it's written in tradition.


anyways, i think you should concentrate on defending your own stories on Jesus, and leaving the Torah alone.

[Sirotnikov]

Actually there are several indications of polytheism in the bible texts, simply because Judaism as a unified religion didn't crystallize until well after Jesus' time. See also below.

This is not exact. I suspect you're referring to the sealing of the Bible by Rabi Yehuda Ha Nasi, which occured in the late 1st century iirc.

But despite the fact the books have only been united then, you had a basic crystalized religion for some time. The basis for this is probably since Ezra and after the return from Babylon. Yes, you had 2 major streams and even several sects but the basic religion was mostly there and crystallized.
The rest of the streams simply died out, to pave way for a single stream that became rabbinical Judaism.

[MattBowron]

To Ben Kenobi:

In regards to the golden calf cult around Moses time, I thought that the destruction of the golden calf was symbolic of Moses saying that it was the end of the age of Taurus, with the sacrificing of rams being the symbolic start of the beginning of the age of Aries. I don't mean to mean this as Moses or the others being believers in occultic astrology, but the use of zodiac constellations as like a large way of recording time periods for history. Note that when Jesus sacrifices himself he becomes the lamb, a symbol of the end of the age of Aries, and his teaching his disciples to be 'fishers of men' and feeding people with 'loaves and fishes' being symbolic teaching of the beginning of the age of Piecses, fishes in that constellation also being the old symbol for Christians in later time periods. Again I don't mean that Jesus himself wasn't a beleiver of occultic astrology, but was using again the astrological time periods as a way of dating the ages of revelation. Also if you think of the symbols of the end times, being 2000 years or so after the time period of Jesus, that the end times could symbolise the end of the age of Pieces and the beginning of the Age of Aquarius, with symbols such as the new heaven and the new earth, the river in this new heaven and the apocalypse or armageddon as a form of global baptism, a spreading of peace and unity spreading spiritually across the world to create a period of a thousand years of peace, and then a greater peace beyond that, again linked to the water carrier, the symbol of Aquarius, and water being symbolic often for spirit.

I was just wondering what your opinions or others were of this take on astrological periods being a form of historical periodization used by Moses, Jesus and other Biblical figures.