How the Soviets Really Won WWII :)

[Serb]

Serb, while your family history is indeed interesting I don't see why it is relevant

That was an explanation of my reaction to laughing about Soviet war losses.

[Ben Kenobi]

Hell, even Poland refused to ally with the USSR.

Why would sheep ally with the wolf?

So if Poland is going to be overrun by the Germans, why should the Soviets allow the territories stolen from it by Poland to fall into German hands?

So the solution is to ally with Hitler and carve up Poland?

If Stalin had stood up to Hitler, it would have saved millions of Soviet civilian lives. Those lives are on Stalin's hands for his treachery.

Wow, and this person claims to have been a history major.

Hmm?

Do they not teach communists that the BoB was in '40?

Edit:

Why is someone without a degree lipping off? I earned mine.

[BlackCat]

Can someone provide a summary of posts 271 through 300?

Someone broke the thread.

Sure. Drake, Che, KH and nye was BS'ing a bit in a friendly way. DF haf a couple of comments about germany not being able to shoot down US airplanes and Patty had a couple of well reasoned comments to earlier DF postings.

Oh, almost forgot - Che posted a nice pic

[Serb]

This is the same Soviet Union that backstabbed Poland and annexed the Baltic republics?

The same Poland who backstabbed Soviets in 1920 and took EXACTLY the same territory which Soviets returned in 1939?
The same Poland who backstabed Czechoslovakia in 1939 on pair with Hitler and grab the part of its territory?
The same Poland whom Churchill back then called a greedy hyena?
You mean that Poland?

Honestly, it's a real question, why should the west intervene to stop a feud between the axis and former axis allies?

Honestly, it's a real question, why should the Soviets intervene to stop a feud between the axis and former axis allies? Those dirty capitalist pigs.

The real answer is: nobody asked Soviets. Just like nobody asked "the west". First Hitler declared war on you. Then on us.
Predicting you to say that UK and France declared war on Germany Sept 3 1939, no otherwise, I should remind you that at that time Germany and USSR was not in war. So you can pretty much shave your enlighted historian arse with that "the west intervened to stop a feud between AXIS and USSR" argument.

While Britain was getting their ass whooped, while France was overrun, what was the Soviet Union doing? Oh, wait, they were sipping tea with Hitler in the Badensee.

And what was GB and France were doing when the Soviet Union till the last second keep saying it will fullfill its obligations to its mutal protection pact with Czechoslovakia in case of German attack against the country? What was the west doing when Soviet Union propossed a wide coalition to stop Hitler at Czechoslovakia?
Oh, they were betraying Czechoslovakia and feeding it to the Hitler without a single shot just to pacify him (read: to encourage him to attack the east instead of the west), just like they feed him Austria earlier.

****ing lying revisionists.

[chequita guevara]

Serb, don't take BK seriously. No one else does. He's a ****ing moron.

[Ben Kenobi]

The same Poland who backstabbed Soviets in 1920 and took EXACTLY the same territory which Soviets returned in 1939?

The same Russian Empire who carved up and occupied Warsaw?

Seriously, would you like the Poles occupying Moscow or Kiev? You've got no cause in this. Twice partioning Poland with the Germans gives them cause to defend themselves and their territory from invasion from the wolves to their left and the wolves to their right.

Thankfully no Polish lands are under occupation still by the Russians.

The same Poland who backstabed Czechoslovakia in 1939 on pair with Hitler and grab the part of its territory?

This is rich, coming from the people who rolled tanks through Prague and crushed the Prague spring.

If the Russians had any credibility, why did they not stand up for the Czechs at Munich?

Honestly, it's a real question, why should the Soviets intervene to stop a feud between the axis and former axis allies? Those dirty capitalist pigs.

We never allied with Hitler to carve up Soviet territory. Unlike the Soviets who did so to destroy an ally of the West.

Why do you think we were regarded as liberators while your people were feared as invaders through all of eastern Europe? The Dutch still thank Canadians for liberating them from tyranny. Would they throw such celebrations in Warsaw? In Prague? In Budapest?

And what was GB and France were doing when the Soviet Union till the last second said it will fullfill its obligations to Czechoslovakia in case of German attack against the country?

Which is why Chamberlain was dumped and replaced with Churchill. Munich Accord was a bad agreement by the west on our part. But we did not make the mistake the second time, or ally with Hitler to carve up Czechoslovakia, as Stalin did with Poland. However, for all the righteousness of the Soviets, why did you not side with the Czechs and oppose Hitler?

(read: to encourage him to attack the east instead of the west).

And it worked well, didn't it? The beauty of it is that the Soviets did it all to themselves by signing the non-aggression pact. You deserved each other, and you should be thankful that we fought in '39, '40, '41, '42, '43, '44 and '45 to save your sorry asses.

[BlackCat]

Wonder if posters can be expelled from a thread ? Otherwise I think this is dead

[Serb]

The same Russian Empire who carved up and occupied Warsaw?

Wow! Why not to dig deeper? Why the Russian Empire? Why not us get back to the times of the Holy Roman Empire?
How was it in the Bale's remix? Because "It's ****ing distracting. Oh, good!"
Looks like all you can do now is to distract. Oh, good!!!

Seriously, would you like the Poles occupying Moscow or Kiev?

They have occupied both when we were weak enough and they have the opportunity, in 17th century.

You've got no cause in this. Twice partioning Poland with the Germans gives them cause to defend themselves and their territory from invasion from the wolves to their left and the wolves to their right.

They are the same wolf when they think they have a chance. When they don't have balls to attack us, they are just a greedy hyena, who attack Czechoslovakia or Lithuania.
Wake-up Neo. And do some ****ing research already.

Thankfully no Polish lands are under occupation still by the Russians.

They do not think so.

Though some German lands are still under their "occupation" thanks to "greedy" uncle Joe who gave them as a gift after the WW2.

This is rich, coming from the people who rolled tanks through Prague and crushed the Prague spring.

So what? Like the opposing force in Cold War never commited any "police operations" in its sphere of influence?

If the Russians had any credibility, why did they not stand up for the Czechs at Munich?

Because nobody ever invited us at Munich. You (the West) have betrayed and decided the fate of Czechoslovakia without us. Despite we were the only side who was ready to fight for it and to form a coalition with you to stop Hitler before he became too strong. Instead you have made him stronger.

We never allied with Hitler to carve up Soviet territory. Unlike the Soviets who did so to destroy an ally of the West.

WHAT ALLY? Soviets were never allied with Hitler. The West did "ally" with Hitler to carve up a WESTERN (it's own) ALLY - Czechoslovakia. And the member of the West (Poland) participated on pair with Hitler in destraction of that ally. and grabbed a part of its territorry (in Russian this region is Tishinskay oblast, don't know its English name, sorry). When we have proposed an alliance - you have just feeded Czechoslovakia to Hitler instead. And Poland was the same friend for Soviets just as Hitler's Germany was.

You have "allied" with Hitler to betray and destroy your own ally, we have "allied" with Hitler to "backstabb" our enemy.

WHICH IS WORSE?

Why do you think we were regarded as liberators while your people were feared as invaders through all of eastern Europe?

Who the **** told you that?
Soviets were granted as liberators in 1945. The situation in 1945, just after the war, after the victory over nazi, when commies were the main oppossing force to nazis in occupied countries of the Eastern Europe, when they were God damn popular and were the major political force there, and the situation 50 years later - it is not the same.

The Dutch still thank Canadians for liberating them from tyranny.

Good for the Dutch.

Would they throw such celebrations in Warsaw? In Prague? In Budapest?

You think they doesnt?

Which is why Chamberlain was dumped and replaced with Churchill. Munich Accord was a bad agreement by the west on our part. But we did not make the mistake the second time, or ally with Hitler to carve up Czechoslovakia, as Stalin did with Poland.

You didn't ally with us to stop Hitler. You betrayed Czechs. You ignored our requests to form a military block and stop Hitler. And you did that "mistake" a second time. The first time was when you ignored anschluss of Austria. Whole your entire foreign policy of that time was to encurage Hitler to go the East. What the **** Stalin should have done after you clearly demonstrated that you are not interesed in alliance with USSR against Nazi Germany, but doing your best to make Germany stronger and encourage it to attack the USSR instead of the west?
You think Stalin cared too much about that backstabbing greedy hyena Poland? That pitty puppet of the west? Poland considered to be a very lickely enemy by the Polack Tuckachevsky in late 30's. Read his book "Future war" or some Soviet military documents of that time (his military notes to the government). From Soviet point of view Poland was just a threat. Like a Germany or Britain or Japan. Why the **** Stalin should care much about the fate of that threat?

However, for all the righteousness of the Soviets, why did you not side with the Czechs and oppose Hitler?

Because we had no possibility to fight vs. Hitler for Czechoslovakia alone, 'cause your puppet Poland had refused to grant the right of passage through its territory. Look at the map, God damn it. How do you think USSR could fight Germany in 1939 alone, without France (who was the part of the same alliance with Czechs (and mind ya - according to the threaty USSR should protect Czechoslovakia only if France does the same, not alone) if the French do not fight and Poland don't let us pass. How?

And it worked well, didn't it?

Very well, no sh!t Sherlock. That worked so well that you were in war with Germany in 1939 and Soviets only in 1941. Well done. Instead of crushing that b!tch before Szechoslovakia when he was nowhere near that strong.

The beauty of it is that the Soviets did it all to themselves by signing the non-aggression pact.

Beauty? I can say the same about the west. No Munich, no that betrayal of the FRIENDLY DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY (not the case with Poland-USSR, Poland was an enemy, not a friend), no WW2.
Simple as that. You brought it on yourselves. Not us.

You deserved each other, and you should be thankful that we fought in '39,'40 '41, '42, '43, '44 and '45 to save your sorry asses.

You deserved each other, and you should be thankful that we fought in '41, '42, '43, '44 and '45 to save your sorry asses.
Because if you fought later as you fought in '39 and '40 you might would not have any "later". "Strange war" and 40 days to surrender - is the best you can do. Had Germany any land connection to GB, Hitler's tanks would have rolled through GB with the same success as through France.
Brits were just lucky, as always.

[Wezil]

And Poly reaches another milestone.

August 6, 2009 - Serb pwns Kenobi.

[chequita guevara]

Well, to be fair, a kindergartner could pwn Kenobi. It's not great feat.

[Serb]

Wonder if posters can be expelled from a thread ? Otherwise I think this is dead

Yeah, I find it amusing that a Canuck Jedi is telling a Russian how they saved our pity asses in WW2.

[Wezil]

Well, to be fair, a kindergartner could pwn Kenobi. It's not great feat.

Hence my noting of the event.

[BlackCat]

Yeah, I find it amusing that a Canuck Jedi is telling a Russian how they saved our pity asses in WW2.

Honestly, it wasn't you that I had in mind. While you can be a real pain in the ass when you loose your mind, you are also pretty good on facts.

Now, do you wanna join our hypothetical discussion where germany has beaten both the brits and soviet and what that could lead to or continue to Ben ? (I know it's fun, but only for a while)

[Serb]

Not tonight. I'm already out of beer. And tommorow I'll get my copy of Hearts of Iron-3. And will beet those dirty nazi and conquer the World with my mighty Greek or Swiss armies once again (Swiss, Greek, Thai or Cuban aircraft carriers dominating the oceans is something that's why I love this game).
So, bye all. Sorry for my drunk rants.

[Ben Kenobi]

Wow! Why not to dig deeper? Why the Russian Empire? Why not us get back to the times of the Holy Roman Empire?

Yes, because 1913 is ancient history.

You are claiming that a mere 25 years later is enough to convince the Poles that the Russians mean to be liberators? Don't make me laugh.

You had your chance to prove that Russia could be a friend of Poland and not their enemy. You had 40 years of such, and the response of Poland? Solidarity! Clearly they loved their friends the Russians who had nothing but the best interests of the Poles in mind in 40 years of occupation.

They have occupied both when we were weak enough and they have the opportunity, in 17th century.

Yes, the time of troubles sucked didn't it? You were very nearly unified into the Commonwealth, just as you inflicted on the Poles after the third partition, and again, in the Warsaw Pact.

They are the same wolf when they think they have a chance. When they don't have balls to attack us, they are just a greedy hyena, who attack Czechoslovakia or Lithuania.

Yes, mighty Russia of 150 million quivers from Poland a third of her size. Seriously? You believe you are threatened by Poland?

They do not think so.

Well they have issues with Belarussia. Wouldn't that be interesting a union between Poland and Belorussia? We've seen that story before, haven't we?

Though some German lands are still under their "occupation" thanks to "greedy" uncle Joe who gave them as a gift after the WW2.

While Yalta awarded you equivalent Polish lands. Hardly a gift to recompense them for theft, while you install a communist government and cram them under the Warsaw Pact. They should thank Uncle Roosevelt.

So what? Like the opposing force in Cold War never commited any "police operations" in its sphere of influence?

So why didn't the Canadians who liberated the Dutch do the same in Holland? We do not occupy the lands we liberate, as you did with the Czechs, Poles, Romanians and the Hungarians. Of course the Czechs were unwilling to put their fate in your hands. They knew your history.

Because nobody ever invited us at Munich.

Whether you were invited or not, has nothing to do with announcing that you would stand behind the Czechs and any incursion on Czech territory was an incursion on the Soviet Union. Yet you did not do so. The reason the Czechs turned to the west is that they did not trust the Russians.

Despite we were the only side who was ready to fight for it and to form a coalition with you to stop Hitler before he became too strong. Instead you have made him stronger.

We did not ally with him. Munich was a disaster, yes, but we did not go hand in hand with Hitler to carve out territory from Europe. We were wrong to trust Hitler, but the non-aggression pact was all you. You could have joined along with Churchill, and said enough. You could have held your principles that Hitler must be stopped. Instead, you showed how little you cared for eastern europe by making sure you got in while the getting was good. You paid dearly for your treachery, and even now, Russia has not recovered to her former strength. Even the nations which were once allied with you have turned their back.

WHAT ALLY? Soviets were never allied with Hitler.

The same ally you waved at while you occupied Poland. The same ally you marched with hand-in-hand.

The West did carved a WESTERN (it's own ALLY) Czechoslovakia to the Hitler.

I'm not arguing Munich was right. It was a disaster. But we did not make the mistake of trusting him again.

WHICH IS WORSE?

Munich was bad, yes. It took us 40 years to get them free again, because of you. Now, thankfully they are free once more. If we had stood up to Hitler at Munich, the Czechs would have remained free, neither the slaves of the Germans or the Russians. Our mistakes do not excuse your actions, which even now, you justify. Allying with Hitler and you say you were right to do so because of the actions of the West? Is Russia so weak that they cannot stand for the good and right?

Who the **** told you that?

The same people you rolled tanks over in Prague. Here's a hint, if you are rolling tanks over them, you aren't liberators. You are occupiers.

The situation in 1945, just after the war, after the victory over nazi, when commies were the main oppossing force to nazis in occupied countries of the Eastern Europe, when they were God damn popular and were the major political force there and the situation 50 years later - it is not the same.

You had many, many options available to you in '45. You could have restored the status quo ante bellum. You chose otherwise, and it took 40 years to undo. Now, at least they are free once more. For all the evils of the Nazis, that is something that will never be forgotten by your western neighbours.

You didn't ally with us to stop Hitler. You betrayed Czechs.

In '38, yes. We made a wrong move and wrong decision, but you did not rush to the aid of the Czechs. There was no ultimatum to Hitler by the Soviets stating that Czechoslovakia was inviolable. In the end they trusted us, but did not trust you, and rightfully so.

First when you ignored anschluss of Austria.

Anschluss was before Munich. And the Soviets did nothing either.

Whole your entire foreign policy was to encurage Hitler to go the East.

Until the Anglo-Polish Agreement, yes. Your policy had been to get while the getting was good and ally with Hitler. You took Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, with the agreement of the Nazis. You took half of Poland. Frankly from the point of view of Eastern Europe, they were stuck between a rock and a hard place. The interesting thing is that many chose Germany over you. That says something with how much they trusted the Soviet Union to protect them, if they would side with Hitler over you.

What the **** Stalin should have done after you clearly demonstrated that you are not interesed in alliance with USSR against Nazi Germany, but doing your best to make Germany stronger and encourage it to attack the USSR instead of the west?

Stalin should have opposed Hitler, and stopped him from getting stronger. Instead you did the exact same thing, and strengthened him even more. You should have signed a Polish agreement along with the British. You should have stood up for the Czechs and damn the thinking of the west. But you did none of these things.

From where I sit, it doesn't see like you folks gave a **** bout the Czechs or the Poles and that when you had the opportunity, you wanted to crush them.

You think Stalin cared too much about that backstabbing greedy hyena Poland?

No, and you proved it by allying with Hitler to stab them in the back. As I said, why should the lamb welcome the wolf?

Because we had no possibility to fight vs. Hitler for Czechoslovakia alone

Whole Baltic sea. You could have gotten permission from Lithuania for a devastating attack on East Prussia.

according to the threaty USSR should protect Czechoslovakia only if France does the same, not alone) if the French do not fight and Poland don't let us pass.

Then you tell the French that you will be standing up for the Czechs anyways as a deterrent to Hitler. You could have gotten permission from Rumania if the Poles would not accede as well, and come from the south.

Very well, no sh!t Sherlock. That worked so well that you were in war with Germany in 1939 and Soviets only in 1941. Well done. Instead of crushing that b!tch before Szechoslovakia when he was nowhere near that strong.

In terms of casulties, you bore the brunt of your 'non-aggression pact'. Tell that to the Russian civilians how great Stalin's diplomacy helped them.

Because if you fought later as you fought in '39 and '40 you might would not have any "later". "Strange war" and 40 days to surrender - is the best you can do. Had Germany any land connection to GB, Hitler's tanks would have rolled through GB with the same success as in France. Brits were just lucky, as always.

I'm not a Brit, serb. I'm one of those damn colonials from a nation that got roped into the european theatre. We fought in '39, and '40. We didn't need any 'saving' from the Soviets.