How the Soviets Really Won WWII :)

[Patroklos]

Does Russia have schools? Is that what you call those undescript windowless concrete block houses with dirt floors?

[Serb]

In addition to direct support of the invasion fleet, the RN and RAF also reduced drastically the logistic support available to the Axis forces in North Africa, and the threat posed by British troops east of Tunisia stopped the Axis from reinforcing the Vichy troops in French North Africa.

If British North African and Middle Eastern power had been dismantled in 1941-1942 due to a lack of support from (hypothetically occupied) Britain then the bulk of Axis troops in North Africa would have been available to repel the invasion. And again, with Gibraltar in the hands of Germany, you're not sending an invasion fleet into the Med without some serious problems.

Add 600+ German divisions destroyed by the Soviets in other case still available to repel any western allies invasion wherever - and FORGET about ANY ****ING INVASION whatsoever. Torch, Market Garden, Normandy - whatever. Without Soviets destroying the bulk of the German force, you would have NEVER, NEVER landed in Europe (or even Africa).
SIMPLE AS THAT.

[BlackCat]

I doubt it. The Japanese were quite busy in 41/42 and I doubt the were really looking for another fight. If Germany had defeated the Soviets, Germany being allied to Japan would pretty much prevent any Soviet aggression against Japan as they would not want to reignite hostilities with the Nazis at that point.

Well, since it was a costly and humiliating defeat they had, they could out sheer revenge mount an attack.

I'm not sure that a german participation would be needed - the germans after all lived with the japanese not attacking soviet.

If I were Japan I would jsut remove most of my forces content that my Norhter neighbor just got its ass handed to it by my ally.

That would of course be the end result, further adding to DF's headache

[Serb]

Does Russia have schools?

Russia does have schools.

Is that what you call those undescript windowless concrete block houses with dirt floors?

Even if so (which is not), these "undescript windowless concrete block houses with dirt floors" provide a better education, 'cause Russians have brains aside of Americans. If you have brains - you can learn in any enviroment. If you are dumb as a yankee, you'll remain dumb even if you are educated in a palace.

[Serb]

its
Losing Moscow would have put Stalin's rule in jeopardy, but doesn't mean Russia is out of the fight. And the Germans failed to take Moscow.

But the Soviets didn't lose Moscow. And that was Dec. 5-7 1941. LONG before any considerable Lend Lease help to the Soviets.
We have stopped Nazis at Moscow on OUR OWN, GOD DAMN IT.
My grad gradfather have been killed in action there. As well as his brother.

[Flubber]

Add 600+ German divisions destroyed by the Soviets in other case still available to repel any western allies invasion wherever - and FORGET about ANY ****ING INVASION whatsoever. Torch, Market Garden, Normandy - whatever. Without Soviets destroying the bulk of the German force, you would have NEVER, NEVER landed in Europe (or even Africa).
SIMPLE AS THAT.

Serb-- I don't think anyone denies the Soviet's huge role in the war. I also didn't see anyone assert the allies could have won if the Soviets dropped out.So I am unsure as to the point of your rant. I take it as pretty obvious that the Soviets suffered the most and did the most to chew up immense quantities of the german military




The only question being argued is whether the Allies could have won "without Britain".

I still haven't seen a complete consensus on what this means . Some seem to assume that britain is conquered and a puppet state (with at least some to all of its resources assisting the nazis) while others seem to assume that Britain is still out there as an independent non-combatant (perhaps in a truce??)

[Serb]

If Britain was invaded but managed to get gov. etc moved, why would Gibraltar and for that matter Malta fall ? Well, malta could be in jepardy, but Gibraltar only if Franco joined the game.

With the fall of GB, Franco would have joined the AXIS, no doubt.

[Serb]

Serb-- I don't think anyone denies the Soviet's huge role in the war. I also didn't see anyone assert the allies could have won if the Soviets dropped out.So I am unsure as to the point of your rant. I take it as pretty obvious that the Soviets suffered the most and did the most to chew up immense quantities of the german military

Ok. I'll try to explain the point of my rant.
I have two grandfathers. I had. Now I have only one. My first grandfather was too young to fight on that war. But his father (the grandfather of my father) wasn't. The father of my grandfather had a brother. Both KIA in battle of Moscow in 1941. After that my grandfather, who was only 14 has volunteered to Red Army to revenge his father, but his request was denied for obvious reasons. Instead he hardworked at railroad to provide a logistic support for the army 16-18 hours a day, at Siberian winter, with poor clothing and sometimes nearly starving. His wife (my grandmother) was a kid then (even younger then him). Though he had an aunt in Belorussia, whom Nazis moved to Germany for forced labour where he died.
My another grandfather - the father of my mother, had two brothers. First KIA (1942), the second died in German POW camp in 1943. Both of his brother fought on this war and he was the only survivor out of three brothers. He was the only one who went through that war and came back alive. As his oldest grandchild, I keep his military decorations now. He fought at Stalingrad (when his division for its combat performance got the elite "Guards" status, liberated Sevastopol, then Kennigsberg, then Praga. He was a sergeant of the 33rd Guards Rifle division, 2nd Guards Army. His division was in personal reserve of the supreme commander (Stalin) and have been used as "fireteam" for the most dangerous parts of the front. That was the elite of the elite. And he was a true warrior, many times decorated and wounded veteran. But he never spoke about how exactly he's got his medals. I get it only after his death, when I requested the military archives. When I get the pappers I was shocked. He has killed a sh!tload of nazis. He has no fear as I remember him in his old years (he engaged in fights with a bunch of young punks and could pick-up and throw away a pittbull without any protests from the dog (despite that dog considered a real killer in the block) in his 70+). I can only wonder what kind of soldier he was when he was only 20 at Stalingrad.
His wife (my grandmother) worked at military plant on pair with her sister (both volunteered to army, both request denied due to their age). Beeing a kids of 14-17 years old they did a mature, male's work without any payment, only for food cards. And sometimes they really starved. They were dauthers of the Red Army colonel - my another grandfather who have been arrested and then executed in 1937. But they work really hard for victory, for their country. Not because they were forced or something. Both of them were decorated for their hardworking (Soviets had such medals then). Both of them now has the the same privileges as the veterans of war.

All of them FOUGHT for THEIR (and mine) MOTHERLAND. They are my HEROES. And MOST OF THEM DIED.

And I am a typicall Russian. TYPICALL.
ANY, absolutely ANY existing Russian is the desendent of the SURVIVORS of THAT WAR. You simply cannot find a single Russian who is not a child or a grandchild of the survivor of the war. You can't find a Russian whose relatives didn't fight there (and didn't die).

That's why that war is such a sensitive matter for us.

This is the reason of my rant.

The only question being argued is whether the Allies could have won "without Britain".

I don't know. And nobody does. Britain was a major player.

I still haven't seen a complete consensus on what this means . Some seem to assume that britain is conquered and a puppet state (with at least some to all of its resources assisting the nazis) while others seem to assume that Britain is still out there as an independent non-combatant (perhaps in a truce??)

Doesn't matter. In any case it puts the Allied victory in jeopardy. Occupied or neutral UK would seriously hampered allied capabilities. I can't deny that.

[Patroklos]

Serb, while your family history is indeed interesting I don't see why it is relevant unless you are trying to use it to white wash and critism you expect for your analysis. You are not the only person with relatives who died in WWII. I have a great uncle who died at Normandy, that fact is entirely independant of my analysis above.

[Ben Kenobi]

You have no ****ing idea what kind of hell was on the eastern front and who the **** destroyed the bulk of the nazi war machine before you, you lazy butts, even first engaged a real nazis in Normandy in 1944. Five God damn years after the outbreak of war.

This is the same Soviet Union that backstabbed Poland and annexed the Baltic republics?

Honestly, it's a real question, why should the west intervene to stop a feud between the axis and former axis allies?

While Britain was getting their ass whooped, while France was overrun, what was the Soviet Union doing? Oh, wait, they were sipping tea with Hitler in the Badensee.

[Patroklos]

Yes, anyone who feels the need to consider the later US entry into the war should do well to watch what they say about Russia in this regard, whose willingness to kowtow to Hitler made the whole thing possible.

[Ben Kenobi]

Like USA had any choice after Hitler declared war on US after this?

I don't see the Soviet Union shipping arms and munitions to thwart the Germans when they were bombing London.

Where were the Soviets then?

Do you seriously believe that if Britain and the Commonwealth were knocked out in '40 that the Soviet Union would have stopped Barbarossa?

[chequita guevara]

Yes, anyone who feels the need to consider the later US entry into the war should do well to watch what they say about Russia in this regard, whose willingness to kowtow to Hitler made the whole thing possible.

Given that the USSR had been begging the West for years for a defensive alliance against Germany, only to have it fall on deaf ears, I don't think that's where you want to put the blame. The Western powers were all hoping that Hitler would carry out his threats to attack the USSR. Turn about's fair play.

Hell, even Poland refused to ally with the USSR. So if Poland is going to be overrun by the Germans, why should the Soviets allow the territories stolen from it by Poland to fall into German hands?

[chequita guevara]

I don't see the Soviet Union shipping arms and munitions to thwart the Germans when they were bombing London.

Where were the Soviets then?

Do you seriously believe that if Britain and the Commonwealth were knocked out in '40 that the Soviet Union would have stopped Barbarossa?

Wow, and this person claims to have been a history major.

[Wezil]

Can someone provide a summary of posts 271 through 300?

Someone broke the thread.