How the Soviets Really Won WWII :)

[BeBMan]

Of course I can't answer that. I'll leave the question to someone else

[chequita guevara]

I don't think the United States would have let a little thing like "impossibility" stop it from defeating the Nazis. If Britain fell, certainly the conservatives would have been opposed to getting involved, but I think the rest of America might have realized how great a threat the Nazis were.

[Patroklos]

I agree, the realization that Britain was actually defeated might very well make it sink in that these whole Nazi type clowns might actually be worth caring about.

[Drake Tungsten]

like it was you who came in and saved the day.

We did come in and save the day.

History says otherwise. You've never won a war without us.

We won the Revolutionary War despite the opposition of you Loyalist scum. 1812, too.

I don't think the United States would have let a little thing like "impossibility" stop it from defeating the Nazis.

I do. Kitty's right on that point.

[chequita guevara]

Quitter

[Zkribbler]

Jesus, Zkrib, the Allied victory was not some close-to-the-wire affair decided at the end of the last inning. It was an overwhelming pwnage.

The RAF was on it's last legs when Hitler moronically switched over to bombing cities. Without the RAF, the RN is sunk and Britain is invaded.

The Nazis pushed to within spitting distance of Moscow and of the Suez Canal. How can we win with no Russia or with the British Empire cut in two?

The Japanese were set to invade India when they got pushed back.

Before Midway, Japanese carriers outnumbered U.S. carriers by more than two-to-one.

Sure, we pwned the Axis at the end. But in '42, victory was up for grabs.

[BTW: When I said the Poles got us Ultra, I meant they got us the Enigma machine. They swiped one from the German Embassy as Warsaw was falling and smuggled it out and into Britain. The German Embassy reported their machine as having been destroyed, so the Nazis continued to use the machines.]

[Lord Avalon]

The RAF was on it's last legs when Hitler moronically switched over to bombing cities. Without the RAF, the RN is sunk and Britain is invaded.

its

I disagree about the RN being "sunk" - while no air cover would be a handicap, and ships would have to find ports further away from the channel, there are still enough of them to make invading England - in barges! - doubtful.

The Nazis pushed to within spitting distance of Moscow and of the Suez Canal. How can we win with no Russia or with the British Empire cut in two?

Losing Moscow would have put Stalin's rule in jeopardy, but doesn't mean Russia is out of the fight. And the Germans failed to take Moscow.

Sure, we pwned the Axis at the end. But in '42, victory was up for grabs.

Early in '42 maybe, but by going so hard after Stalingrad and failing hugely, Hitler sent Germany down the losing track. Moscow still should have been the target, IMO. One could argue that a win went out the door when they failed to take it before winter '41.

[Theben]

Tell that to all the English we saved in Dunkirk by slowing down the Germans at the Leie. Really, if you don't know anything you better shut up. Making noice does not impress me and content wise you haven't much to offer.

What saved the British and Free french was Hitler holding back his armored divisions. Had he sent them in there wouldn't have been a British army left.

Of course the Germans may still have not had an opportunity to invade England. The Brits had naval and aerial superiority.

[KrazyHorse]

Don't bother engaging him. He's an imbecile.

[Zkribbler]

its

...Early in '42 maybe, but by going so hard after Stalingrad ...

That is the point I'm trying to make. Early on, it was close. But after Stalingrad, Kursk, El Alamein, the Battle of Britain, and Midway, it was not. By '44, the best Hitler could hope for was to throw the Allies back into the sea at Normandy, and then he might have been able to negotiate a truce.


Without the Soviets, there would be no victories at Stalingrad and Kursk. Without the Brits and Canadians, no victory at El Alamen and the Battle of Britain. Without the Yanks, no victory at Midway.

And as for the Norweigians, this from Wikipedia:

The Allies remained concerned that the occupation forces would use the facility to produce more heavy water for their weapons program. Between 1940 and 1944 a sequence of sabotage actions, by Norwegian resistance movement, as well as Allied bombing, ensured the destruction of the plant and the loss of the heavy water produced. These operations — codenamed "Grouse", "Freshman" and "Gunnerside" — finally managed to knock the plant out of production in early 1943.

Operation "Grouse" successfully placed four Norwegian nationals as an advance team in the region of the Hardanger Plateau above the plant. Later in 1942 the unsuccessful operations codenamed "Freshman" was mounted by British paratroopers; they were to rendezvous with the Norwegians of Operation "Grouse" and proceed to Vemork. This attempt failed when the military gliders crashed short of their destination. All the participants were killed in the crash or captured, interrogated and executed by the Gestapo.

In 1943, a team of British-trained Norwegian commandos succeeded at destroying the production facility with a second attempt known as Operation Gunnerside. Operation Gunnerside was later dubbed by the British SOE as the most successful act of sabotage in all of World War II.[2]

These actions were followed by allied force bombing raids. The Germans elected to cease operation and remove the remaining heavy water to Germany. Norwegian resistance forces sank the ferry, SF Hydro on Lake Tinnsjø, preventing the heavy water from being removed.

[BlackCat]

b) If Britain had fallen during 1940-41 there would not have been a base for the Allies in North Africa. And Gibraltar would have fallen as well. The Med would NOT have been a reasonable route.

If Britain was invaded but managed to get gov. etc moved, why would Gibraltar and for that matter Malta fall ? Well, malta could be in jepardy, but Gibraltar only if Franco joined the game.

[KrazyHorse]

If Britain was invaded but managed to get gov. etc moved, why would Gibraltar and for that matter Malta fall ? Well, malta could be in jepardy, but Gibraltar only if Franco joined the game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_logistics

[BlackCat]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_logistics

Well, I have never doubted your ability to read the Wiki, but please enligthen why it matters here

[BlackCat]

KH, you forget that Gibraltar isn't a big consumer - only the navy when it comes to oil and ammo. With most of the RN to protect (at low oil use), the germans hasn't anything that can take Gibraltar.

Supplies can easily be send from SA and they will have plenty of warships as protection.

I'm not sure if they would be able to support Malta, but Gibraltar shouldn't be a problem.

[BlackCat]

To be true, I think that the RN would see it as an opprtunity if the german navy attempted an attack on Gibraltar - kind of shooting fish in a barrel

Edit: dammit- I'm apparently gone KH'ish - three posts in a row