Lord, liar, lunatic, legend?

[BeBMan]

Faith can't be proven. It can be supported though.

Yes. That's why I'm wondering why 'proof' came up here. I thought the thing with religion is not only that faith can't be proven, but that it does not need to be proven, at least not within the 'religious' sphere. If I have 'proof' then I don't have to rely on faith - then I *know* (assuming the proof isn't nonsense, and can be verified via critical examination), which is kinda contrary to the whole "faith" thing.


(Don't get me wrong, like Siro I don't have any prob with people believing in something, it's just strange when religious belief comes together with 'proof')

[Jon Miller]

It does mean that you can't say the scriptures are true because they were written by eyewitnesses.

We can say that we have evidence that scripture is true, because they were written by people who talked to and knew eyewitnesses.

But that is the same evidence as we have of other writings being true.

It takes faith to believe in the miraculous, I don't disagree with that. In one sense of the word I am agnostic, because I don't think you can scientifically prove that there is a God. However, I am not really, because if you follow God, then you see Him working in your life.

It is ridiculous, those who say that Christ never existed though. While it is true that stories might not all be true, there would definitely be some truth to them in the 10 years after the events happened.

Really, the central question is not 'did Christ turn water into wine'. That is pretty unimportant. The central questions are:
'is there a God?'
'what is the nature of God?'
'was Christ merely a great philosopher, or something more?'

And I think the best way to answer the last question is to seek God, to pray and meditate. And to be willing to try Christ out, because it is through trying Christ that you get personal evidence (which is all I think that exists) that you are making the right decision.

JM

[Jon Miller]

Yes. That's why I'm wondering why 'proof' came up here.

It was probably Ben.

JM

[Sirotnikov]

It is ridiculous, those who say that Christ never existed though. While it is true that stories might not all be true, there would definitely be some truth to them in the 10 years after the events happened.

That i agree with.
there's evidence for a real historic basis for a guy named Jesus (Jeshua) walking around and raising hell for authorities around 30AD.

[MikeH]

The problem is, in attempting to answer 3, you have to believe 1.

[Jon Miller]

Well, yeah, I think that if you aren't willing to believe 1 that your answer for 3 is obvious?

When considering 1 and 2, it is important to consider options, which means considering 3 I think.

JM

[Sirotnikov]

in other good news- this poll proves we have at least 33 actual people visiting the OT.

[Ben Kenobi]

I guess that was my biggest problem. Some Woman is rambling on about how she lost something and prayed to god to help her find it and when she finds it praises god for helping her.

So what's the problem? Ask, seek, knock.

Millions of children are dying from disease and starvation every day and God spent his time helping this woman finding a trinket.

This is really a question of suffering, why does a good, all powerful God allow suffering in the world? From what I can see it's a consequence of free will. If we have true free will, we can do things that hurt us and hurt others. Same with the natural world. God doesn't give us a playpen that's rubber and protects us from all things. **** happens sometimes and is a consequence of the world in which we live in.

You might see it as injust when a natural disaster kills people, but you must understand that "it rains on both the righteous and the wicked". Faith does not preclude suffering.

As for prayer, God doesn't always say yes, sometimes it's just not to be. God isn't a pez dispenser.

So the women claims that finding her trinket is proof that god exists. Hmmmm. If any prayer being answered or any other miracle is proof/reinforcement that God exists, then I refuse to worship a god that will answer those prayers while letting all those children die. What a crappy God.

So when the glory of God is manifest, you refuse to accept so long as there is suffering in the world? Would you prefer a rubber world free of disease and suffering? I think that's called heaven...

So please tell me how your faith was supported while more children die.

Is it God's fault for every bad thing that happens?

[Sirotnikov]

It was probably Ben.

JM

not exactly.
ben was talking about christianity's truths and i called him out on a gap in his logic.

[Ben Kenobi]

We have much better evidence about the way the bible and Christian doctrines have been edited, constructed and mistranslated over the last couple of thousand years. As well as good sources for many parts of the myth existing in pre-christian cultures.

Which is why the oldest manuscripts are helpful in getting us closer to the original. I'm not going to say that the text we have is perfect, especially when you have to consider that there are problems associated with the Old Testament particularly with the pentateuch and Job, which both seem to date more then a thousand years before Christ. I do believe that the core beliefs and doctrine are accurate.

[rah]

So what's the problem? Ask, seek, knock.
As for prayer, God doesn't always say yes, sometimes it's just not to be. God isn't a pez dispenser.

And if it's yes for psycho woman and no to millions of kids, bad priorities and someone not worth my worship. I may not be the best person in the world, but I know if I had the power, I'd choose helping the kids first and everytime. If your god can't see the same thing, he's no god. And I am surprised that you'd catagorize your god as whimsical. Not very flattering.

[Ben Kenobi]

If you wanna believe - believe. If you wanna pretend you can prove something - you're in for what ever criticism I throw at you.

If you want to take it objectively, we can be more sure that the resurrection happened then in Caesar crossing the Rubicon.

The only one who attests to this event is Suetonius, in his lives of the 12 Caesars which was written in 121, nearly 175 years after Caesar crossed the Rubicon.

The earliest extant manuscript copy of the Lives of the 12 Caesars dates back to 950 AD.

The Gospels, by contrary, are newer, written within the lives of eyewitnesses to the events, and we have manuscripts of partial copies dating back to the 2nd century, and full copies to the Codex Vaticanus to 300 AD.

Objectively, there's just no comparison between the two.

[Ben Kenobi]

And if it's yes for psycho woman and no to millions of kids, bad priorities and someone not worth my worship.

So if you were God you'd do a better job is what you are saying?

I may not be the best person in the world, but I know if I had the power, I'd choose helping the kids first and everytime.

I don't know about that. I know myself and I don't want that kind of power.

If your god can't see the same thing, he's no god. And I am surprised that you'd catagorize your god as whimsical. Not very flattering.

He can see all ends, I cannot.

[MikeH]

Written evidence is only one form of evidence.

An army crossing a river is a very simple thing to recreate and prove possible.

But stating that other historical works are also unreliable doesn't actually back up your case, in fact it weakens it.

[Jon Miller]

not exactly.
ben was talking about christianity's truths and i called him out on a gap in his logic.

Nothing wrong with calling them truths.

Saying that they can be scientifically proven is wrong.

There is a large difference.

JM