So I tried searching for "We Play Civ"...

[Ben Kenobi]

You want to try again or are you going for the Ben Kenobi award for lying.

You mean I get to award it to people? Cool.

Ben also lies over trivial things, but in the aggregate it shows you can't trust a single word he says.

Or it could just mean that I don't give a **** about trivia.

[FrostyBoy]

....or do you think that sn00py has higher moral value than his soon-to-be-horribly-deceived-wife does simply because he posts on this site?

FYI, I broke up with her.

[KrazyHorse]

Good

[ZEE]

CivCon 09 has just been cancelled

[Imran Siddiqui]

Just?

Where the **** have you been?

[ZEE]

shows how much i pay attention. I didn't see that point brought up when talking about Dan and Co, however, so im not sure if everybody knew or not.

also nobody goes to the Community Forum anymoar.

[FrostyBoy]

Btw, just to defend us artists, , I believe artists are much harder to come by than programmers, especially good artists. Hence why I think they get paid more. I'm interested to see the wages of an artist compared to a programmer over at Blizzard.

This is where I think Asher gets confused/frustrated. An interface designer is similar to a movie director. He should understand the technicalities behind the camera, effects, etc, but not necessarily have to work on them, primarily he needs to be creative/artistic. I don't classify myself as an artist primarily, in my line of work, I am a designer.

I believe it is more natural for an artist to become a designer than it is for a programmer to become a designer and I don't mean just any designer, I mean a good designer; this is because artists naturally have the foresight of the end product before a programmer will. Programmers seem to need everything to be written out on paper before they can begin work on any project, in the end, their systematic approach leads to a boring product good enough for other programmers and robots.

In conclusion, if you're making a product for human interface, leave the design to the artists.

[KrazyHorse]

Artist: median salary 0$

[Asher]

Btw, just to defend us artists, , I believe artists are much harder to come by than programmers, especially good artists. Hence why I think they get paid more. I'm interested to see the wages of an artist compared to a programmer over at Blizzard.

No, they are not harder to come by. They're a dime a dozen. That's why their pay is substantially less.

And don't confuse a "programmer" with a professional software engineer. They're very different discipline with very different salaries.

Artists do not get paid more. I don't know what you are smoking, but you are clearly demonstrating you know nothing of the field.

This is where I think Asher gets confused/frustrated. An interface designer is similar to a movie director. He should understand the technicalities behind the camera, effects, etc, but not necessarily have to work on them, primarily he needs to be creative/artistic. I don't classify myself as an artist primarily, in my line of work, I am a designer.

The problem with you artsy types is you don't understand the functional aspects of HCI. I'm not talking about being the guy to technically implement them myself -- most of the time these days I don't even program a single bit of the UI. I design the UI myself and pass it on to subordinate developers who then implement it.

HCI is a discipline, it's far more than someone who thinks they are an "interface designer" such as yourself. I guarantee you that you are not well-versed in competent UI design, like leveraging Fitt's Law. If a software company has a competent HCI team, it's lead by an HCI expert which almost always comes from a computer science background, with a specialty (which also has frequent dabblings in Psychology as a background). Very, very seldom do any of these people come from "artist" backgrounds. Artists are employed on the team, but only as part of creating a visual aesthetic but they are kept miles away from the functionality and substantial UI design components.

Programmers seem to need everything to be written out on paper before they can begin work on any project, in the end, their systematic approach leads to a boring product good enough for other programmers and robots.

In conclusion, if you're making a product for human interface, leave the design to the artists.

The problem here is you don't understand what I do, you don't understand the distinction between software engineer and "programmer", and you generally don't understand much of anything. In terms of salary, software engineer > programmer >> artist.

You're way wrong, in any case.

My job isn't as a programmer, FWIW. My job involves programming, but that's not my job. I design and architect UIs and entire programs on a huge array of platforms (from cell phones to internet tablets to web sites to back-end software). Your characterization is that of a code monkey, which I will agree with you is no more competent at designing UIs than an off-the-shelf artist.

And for the record, I'm not the one confused here. I've done this professionally for a few years now from the biggest of the big companies (IBM) down to small private consulting companies. All of them had dedicated HCI teams (IBM's HCI laboratory was actually across the hall from me at their Markham, Ontario campus). I've talked with many people who've done HCI in the professional sector for a living, both as my professors in school and at the company I've worked at. HCI is a full-out discipline, one that is almost always held in the department of Computer Science for a reason. It's a multi-disciplinary field with a strong emphasis on psychology and computer science, with a tiny sprinking of pretty-making artists.

[SlowwHand]

Artist: median salary 0$

****wit.

[FrostyBoy]

No, they are not harder to come by. They're a dime a dozen. That's why their pay is substantially less.

And don't confuse a "programmer" with a professional software engineer. They're very different discipline with very different salaries.

Artists do not get paid more. I don't know what you are smoking, but you are clearly demonstrating you know nothing of the field.


The problem with you artsy types is you don't understand the functional aspects of HCI. I'm not talking about being the guy to technically implement them myself -- most of the time these days I don't even program a single bit of the UI. I design the UI myself and pass it on to subordinate developers who then implement it.

HCI is a discipline, it's far more than someone who thinks they are an "interface designer" such as yourself. I guarantee you that you are not well-versed in competent UI design, like leveraging Fitt's Law. If a software company has a competent HCI team, it's lead by an HCI expert which almost always comes from a computer science background, with a specialty (which also has frequent dabblings in Psychology as a background). Very, very seldom do any of these people come from "artist" backgrounds. Artists are employed on the team, but only as part of creating a visual aesthetic but they are kept miles away from the functionality and substantial UI design components.


The problem here is you don't understand what I do, you don't understand the distinction between software engineer and "programmer", and you generally don't understand much of anything. In terms of salary, software engineer > programmer >> artist.

You're way wrong, in any case.

My job isn't as a programmer, FWIW. My job involves programming, but that's not my job. I design and architect UIs and entire programs on a huge array of platforms (from cell phones to internet tablets to web sites to back-end software). Your characterization is that of a code monkey, which I will agree with you is no more competent at designing UIs than an off-the-shelf artist.

And for the record, I'm not the one confused here. I've done this professionally for a few years now from the biggest of the big companies (IBM) down to small private consulting companies. All of them had dedicated HCI teams (IBM's HCI laboratory was actually across the hall from me at their Markham, Ontario campus). I've talked with many people who've done HCI in the professional sector for a living, both as my professors in school and at the company I've worked at. HCI is a full-out discipline, one that is almost always held in the department of Computer Science for a reason. It's a multi-disciplinary field with a strong emphasis on psychology and computer science, with a tiny sprinking of pretty-making artists.

Then you're mainstream, you're the system, you're the guy who follows procedure because without it you would be lost.

You made Transformers. The designers I'm talking about made A Clockwork Orange. This is the stark difference I am talking about and why I say the iPhone is an all round better phone than anything else right now.

[Asher]

Then you're mainstream, you're the system, you're the guy who follows procedure because without it you would be lost.

You made Transformers. The designers I'm talking about made A Clockwork Orange. This is the stark difference I am talking about and why I say the iPhone is an all round better phone than anything else right now.

This is actually precisely why artists are terrible HCI people.

The iPhone is undeniably prettier than the Blackberry. In your eyes, it is better.

An HCI person understands the concept of "target audience" and "use cases". The Blackberry user is one who sends and receives many emails. For this reason, the interface for the Blackberry is designed around making sending and receiving emails quicker and easier. And it succeeds here.

The iPhone user is typically a multimedia user. They surf the web, play music, play games, play videos. The UI is better for this than the Blackberry, but inferior to the Blackberry in the areas of massive email use.

You are completely oblivious to the nature of functional interfaces. A good UI is not just one that is pretty, but one that lets you quickly, efficiently, and intuitively perform the task.

This is precisely why you cannot let artists design interfaces. They only see part of the picture and -- quite frankly -- most artists' brains aren't wired right for true HCI design. You need have a highly analytical mind to anticipate the factors and compromises in HCI design. On top of that, a good HCI designer has studied the field, which involves lots of research and reading, something I've found most artists fail miserably at. Take you, for instance. You can't even read and comprehend simple online posts, let alone 1000+ pages of case studies and functional interfaces.

I'm just curious, but could you link me to some of the web site UIs you've designed? I recall asking you this question months ago (if not years), and you then linked to a site that was God-awful...

[EPW]

Solver and Locutus havn't posted on WPC in 2 weeks.

[SlowwHand]

Thanks for the update. I know I'll sleep better tonight, knowing their whereabouts are being tracked.

[Asher]

Please post your further stupidity about artists here: http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?t=187173