Iraq - The war that just keeps on giving

[DirtyMartini]

Statistics and the bolded sentence in the OP aside, I belive it is a story because for years and years and years we've been told to "support our troops", that they're "heros who're putting their lives on the line to defend liberty" that they are prepared to "sacifice everything in the defense of the American way". When they come home and commit murder it sort of bursts the hero bubble.

[SlowwHand]

Not particularly. Maybe it points out a problem with the care at separation from military.

[DirtyMartini]

Granted. But whether you look at the story and say "the military needs to take better care of its vets at separation" or "man some of soldiers end up f*$(*d up" or whatever, it is a legitimate news story, contrary to what some others have said.

[Sava]

I'm not a ****ing moron who opines on stuff I just don't understand.

since when?

[SlowwHand]

Tell him, Sava. The wimp has me on Ignore.

[Donegeal]

While I generally think KH lacks some tact, his is quite right in this matter.

[DirtyMartini]

Really?

Heavy combat in Iraq where U.S. soldiers witnessed the deaths of many fellow troops may have contributed to hostile behaviour by Colorado-based veterans who have been accused or convicted in 11 slayings back home, the Army said Wednesday.

The Army launched an investigation after soldiers from the 4th Brigade Combat Team, 4th Infantry Division were accused in a spate of five killings around Colorado Springs, home to Fort Carson, in 2007 and 2008.

A "spate of five killings" allegedly committed by a single combat team isn't news? Also, is it really appropriate that former soldiers should conform to the murder rate of the general populace? Shouldn't their rate be lower -- discipline, honor and all that? There is indeed something wrong with the system when combat veterans don't perform better than average at not killing their fellow citizens.

[Garth Vader]

That would be interesting stats to compare. Murder rate of ex-soldiers during the 90's and now.

[Sava]

Tell him, Sava. The wimp has me on Ignore.

I'm pretty sure the only person he doesn't ignore is his little sycophant, Kuciwalker. Every thread they post in degenerates into a creepy 69ing between the two.

slurrrprslurrrpslurrrpGAAAGGspitrepeat

[Patroklos]

Granted. But whether you look at the story and say "the military needs to take better care of its vets at separation" or "man some of soldiers end up f*$(*d up" or whatever, it is a legitimate news story, contrary to what some others have said.

No, you should look at the story and see that the murder rate is actually lower than average once you decipher the deliberatly detail deficient stats the guys published. The story here is that despite all they have gone through they are no more violent that the average citizen.

Also, is it really appropriate that former soldiers should conform to the murder rate of the general populace? Shouldn't their rate be lower -- discipline, honor and all that? There is indeed something wrong with the system when combat veterans don't perform better than average at not killing their fellow citizens.

We recruit from the same pool of citizenry as everyone else, and from a far more diverse sample set within it than most. Our military should have ever societal problem that our society itself has, whether or not it is tempered by constant military supervision.

Veterans are not super human, you have an unrealistic expectation of what they should be.

[Sprayber]

Really?
There is indeed something wrong with the system when combat veterans don't perform better than average at not killing their fellow citizens.

No system can teach honor. It can enforce discipline through various incentives and punishments , but in the end it depends on the individual. They are humans drawn from the general population. In my experience, some of the best people that I have known I met while serving but also some of the biggest pieces of **** have have also been in. The only thing I expect them to be better at than the general population is in the act if killing. That is why they are there even if they are in the motor pool

[Felch]

I'd expect returning vets to have far higher rates for violent crime. After all, times are tough, you've got a skill set geared towards violence, and crime is a pretty good career path in the short term.

This sounds like good news to be honest.

[DaShi]

Soldier of Fortune.

[Ben Kenobi]

I see Ben is on the idiot side (well duh!).

That's because like KH I actually understand statistics.

As I said earlier, labelling us 'idiots' isn't exactly compelling.

[Ben Kenobi]

A "spate of five killings" allegedly committed by a single combat team isn't news? Also, is it really appropriate that former soldiers should conform to the murder rate of the general populace? Shouldn't their rate be lower -- discipline, honor and all that? There is indeed something wrong with the system when combat veterans don't perform better than average at not killing their fellow citizens.

That is why KH makes the note, adjusted for age and sex. Most homocides are confined to a specific segment of the population, one that just happens to encompass most of the returning soldiers, young men.

When you look at the overall statistics which include everybody, including the 105 year old granny down the street, and you look at the army statistics which don't have 105 year old grannies, then your rate for the army will be higher unless you control for age and sex.

Also, KH is actually making a rather dubious assumption that there have only been 2 years involved. However, the error is against him, so it's ok. Even after you make this assumption, and without controlling for age and sex, you get 6/100,000 which is only slightly higher then 5 per 100,000.

AFAIK, this correlates to a lower rate, when you correct for the proper duration and control for age and sex by removing the percentage of the general population unlikely to commit homocide.