California and Mob Rule

[KrazyHorse]

Or do you see a substantial shift in support on the issue?

The number I've heard bandied about is that support for gay marriage increases at the rate of ~2% per annum due to simple demographics (the younger cohort is fine with gay marriage, the older one is dying off)

[rah]

As predicted, Ben couldn't stand up to the second class citizen arguement so let it switch to discussing hate crimes.
His method of debate is dishonest, but we predicted it so it's no suprise.

[Lorizael]

Hate crime legislation makes no sense to me. Matthew Sheppard's killers were arrested, prosecuted and convicted, as was proper. HCL seems, to me, unlikely to provide much benifit whilst skirting dangerously close to thought crime law.

-Arrian

I don't disagree with you; I'm just using hate crime stats to show that there very clearly is widespread violence against gays in our country.

[DinoDoc]

The number I've heard bandied about is that support for gay marriage increases at the rate of ~2% per annum due to simple demographics (the younger cohort is fine with gay marriage, the older one is dying off)

Within CA?

[KrazyHorse]

I'm about 50/50 on whether my former upstairs neighbour had his skull cracked open (forcing him to spend 3 months in the hospital) because of a gay bashing.

[KrazyHorse]

Within CA?

That's supposed to be nationwide. It might be different in CA due to increasing Hispanic population.

[Ben Kenobi]

So you don't think that we should differentiate 1st degree Murder from 2nd degree from manslaughter? One punishment fits all of them?

Differentiation based on the act makes sense. Differentiation based on the identity of the victim does not.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Differentiation based on the act makes sense. Differentiation based on the identity of the victim does not.

Ben- you really don't understand criminal law. It's the state of mind of the accused that makes the difference.

[Ben Kenobi]

As predicted, Ben couldn't stand up to the second class citizen arguement so let it switch to discussing hate crimes.

His method of debate is dishonest, but we predicted it so it's no suprise.

I believe it was Lori who brought up hate crimes.

[Arrian]

They've already dealt with that issue, Arrian. Was there something substantively wrong with the process they used? Or do you see a substantial shift in support on the issue?

Obviously I believe the issue will come back. It's been dealt with, but I think it will be dealt with again. As for the process, it was fine except of course the prop system itself is ****.

Yes, I see an ongoing trend towards legalising gay marriage. I think CA will get there, reasonably soon.

-Arrian

[Ben Kenobi]

Ben- you really don't understand criminal law. It's the state of mind of the accused that makes the difference.

Pre-meditation for first degree takes something more substantive then simply asserting that the murderer planned the murder in advance in his head. You have to be able to show actions involving preparation, or argue that the nature of the crime indicates foresight, ie, stalking, and waiting for the person to arrive before killing them, after extensive monitoring to know their routine.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Are you going to follow that up by telling me the Earth is spherical? You do realise I do this for a living?

[KrazyHorse]

Ben- you really don't understand criminal law. It's the state of mind of the accused that makes the difference.

In terms of the distinction between, say, manslaughter and 1st degree murder it is intent which makes the difference. In terms of the distinction between a crime being a hate crime or not it is motive which makes the difference.

Motive can be used as an element of proof of mens rea (i.e. intent) but it is not itself intent.

[rah]

I believe it was Lori who brought up hate crimes.

He did as an arguement that hate crimes against them as part of their second class citizen status that you keep ignoring, you moron. But instead of saying well maybe gays are treated like second class citizens you moved right on to what is a hate crime. Geeze. So I have no problem if you want to argue what a hate crime is, but maybe you can now admit that gays might be treated like second class citizens. I would like to say blacks, but then you'd argue that they aren' the same to again muddy up the arguement. If you're going to move on in your arguements at least have the intergrity to admit you're switching because what you were originally argueing is over and you've lost.

[KrazyHorse]

Examples:

1) I am jostled at a bar mistakenly. I punch the man who jostles me. He dies.

2) A man at a bar propositions me by squeezing my buttocks and winking at me. I scream "******!" and punch him. He dies.

3) I go to a bar. I see there a man with whom I had a fistfight last week. I get a knife from my car, walk up to him and stab him. He dies.

4) I go to a bar. I see there a local gay man. I am well known for making threats of violence against gay people. I get a knife from my car, walk up to him and stab him. He dies.

(1) and (2) are manslaughter (may or may not be voluntary manslaughter). (3) and (4) are premeditated murder. (2) and (4) are hate crimes. (1) and (3) are not.