[serious] OTF Moderation input

[ZEE]

I'll get right on that.

[MikeH]

I posted something about this in the moderators forum, but I think it deserves a wider discussion.

I think Asher's reactions to Ben yet again spouting his homophobic views were quite understandable. I don't think we should punish Asher for his reactions to this continued incessant baiting about his sexuality. Ben's views are unacceptable in modern western democracies and Asher should have the right to vigorously defend himself. I think this is supported at Apolyton where the vast majority posters in threads where this stuff comes up find Ben's views unacceptable and back Asher up. Not that Asher needs help defending himself.

People have fought hard for equality in race, sex, sexuality and we shouldn't belittle that by punishing someone for standing up for those hard fought rights as hard as someone trying to do them down, ignore them or pretend they don't exist.

Be interested what other people think.

[Jon Miller]

I personally think that Ben should be able to post his views... but doing so continually when he knows that Asher already knows his views isn't valuable or useful and gets to the level of attacks rather than just letting others know his views.

I am not in general in favor of removing posters or subjects of conversation from consideration.

But in the specific cases of Slaughtermeyer on Jews (as that is what he always posts about), and BK on homosexuality, the conversation is always the same and has gotten old and stale. It isn't needed, it doesn't add anything, and in both cases continuing to post on it means that it becomes an attack. I Think.

JM

[Alinestra Covelia]

Poly's OT is already a place where people go at their own risk. The "no personal attacks" rule is dead or at least very close to it. General feeling seems to be flame-or-be-flamed and moderation was light under MingRah and continues to be fairly light under Plomp et al.

Specific to this case: Like you said, Asher doesn't need help defending himself. If Ben's views (or any other alleged bigot's views) really are as poisonous as you say, let them keep posting away. By the rationale of "Poly's posters can take care of themselves", sooner or later they'll be recognized as such by posters even without mod intervention.

Personally, I'd prefer stronger overall moderation - but that's somewhat beyond the scope of what MikeH has asked. OT is already someplace where snide barbs, rather than substantive discussion, seems to be the norm. If the mods are happy with this, it seems disingenuous to take special action against Ben just because he seems to actually believe in the statements he's making.

[Nikolai]

I can not support a ban on expressing personal views. Ben should be able to express his beliefs, just as much as Asher. But there is something called decent behaviour, and both Asher and Ben has problems with that it seems. Without having bothered to check what Ben has said on various topics, I'm conservative and probably am in line with much of his views. That doesn't give me or him the right to play the rightous pietist, but it gives us the right of belief and the right to express them. In a civil, and hopefully, respectfull manner. If Ben and Asher can do that, let them play on. If they can't show others respect and a little humility while expressing their views, punish them.

[rah]

I posted something about this in the moderators forum, but I think it deserves a wider discussion.

I think Asher's reactions to Ben yet again spouting his homophobic views were quite understandable. I don't think we should punish Asher for his reactions to this continued incessant baiting about his sexuality. Ben's views are unacceptable in modern western democracies and Asher should have the right to vigorously defend himself. I think this is supported at Apolyton where the vast majority posters in threads where this stuff comes up find Ben's views unacceptable and back Asher up. Not that Asher needs help defending himself.

People have fought hard for equality in race, sex, sexuality and we shouldn't belittle that by punishing someone for standing up for those hard fought rights as hard as someone trying to do them down, ignore them or pretend they don't exist.

Be interested what other people think.

I agree 100%
Ben is fully aware of the reaction he will get but he posts anyway, so he deserves what he gets.

[Lorizael]

I can not support a ban on expressing personal views.

Ben is not currently banned for expressing his beliefs, but for baiting and attacking Asher. As I have stated on more than one occasion in the past, I have no desire to moderate people's right to express their beliefs, no matter how much I may disagree with those beliefs.

Where Ben runs into trouble is when he knowingly baits other posters into making inflammatory comments. When he does this, polite though he may be, he destroys the conversation.

[DaShi]

Banning Asher is the most wrongheaded moderator decision since the last time Asher was banned.

[Jon Miller]

Ben doesn't really have anything more to say to Asher, and everyone here knows his views.

JM

[rah]

If reiteration of known positions is against the rules, there wouldn't me much activity here.
Crap, when was the last time you read something new about the death penalty discussion or the abortion arguements?

[MikeH]

According to the new Apolyton rules posting hate speech and pestering other users to ruin their enjoyment of a site are both against the rules. Ben might not break the letter of those rules but he certainly breaks the spirit of them.

I agree people should be able to express their beliefs. But other people should be able to respond and tell them how offensive and hurtful those beliefs are.

[MikeH]

I haven't worked out how to ban anyone yet, I'm hoping I won't have to learn.

[MikeH]

I agree people should be able to express their beliefs.

As long as they aren't inciting violence, hatred etc. obviously.

[ZEE]

Put me in charge... I'll learn these kids a thing or 2.

srsly though i like things better now than under Dan 'Dubya' Q

[Sirotnikov]

Is Asher banned too?

Certainly if Ben deteriorates every possible discussion into a discussion of gay life-style, then it's a problem. I don't follow enough of his threads to see that it's so. Baiting that is done in malice shouldn't be allowed. Disrputing every gay thread with posts about how being gay is bad, should not be allowed.

In some cases though, Ben's baiting, annying as it may, is not enough to justify banning. Asher should grow a thicker skin in some cases, or accept the limits of how mad can he be. I reacted really harshly against slaughtermeyer but I knew I'd be punished for it.