Designer babies are here.

[Ben Kenobi]

So what. Jared Diamond said basically the same thing, but he didn't say anything about what should be done with the 'weaker' peoples (incidentally the 'weaker' people he considered civilized people in the west, and aboriginal people in Papua to have better genes, as the weak had died off.

So you don't see the conclusion to all of this, is that if the west wants to be strong, they should kill off their weak members?

Darwin's comments reflect the mentality of his time.

And ours. He is revered more now then he was in his day.

In this day and age, people with brains know just because someone has a disability doesn't mean they cannot contribute to themselves, their family, or society in some beneficial way. I don't see anyone hooering for Hawkins head on a platter b/c he can't walk.

Hawking has Lou Gehrig's disease. Thankfully there isn't a prenatal test for predisposition.

[Arrian]

And so the time comes to deal with difficult questions...

On the one hand, I think the vast majority of us recoil at the idea of picking hair color, eye color, gender, etc. On the other, if you're a parent of a fetus with a serious defect that can be corrected, it's gotta be hard not to want to go ahead and have it corrected.

I have friends who are expecting twins. One of those twins will not survive long, because it's got just about every defect you can imagine. Something to do with having an extra chromosone or somesuch. Would it be wrong if they could have, somehow, had that extra chromosone removed early on and had a healthy baby? Why or why not?

-Arrian

[Lorizael]

That is true, but at the same time you are saying that if you are blind or deaf, that you are less of a person and need to be fixed.

Of course a blind or deaf people is less of a person than those that aren't. If you measure humans, it has to be done by some criteria that's going to piss off someone. But by that same token, just about everyone out there is less of a person in some way, because just about all of us are pretty ****ed up. For example, some of us like to stick our naughty parts in the wrong hole.

[rah]

Come on, rah. Considering Ben's hearing problems and considering the long and infamous history of killing off people who were disabled, Ben's sensitivity to this issue is understandable.

It's true, you did not say what he perceived. But it's crazy for you to "assume that's what you believe."

Hey, he feels free to distort and misinterpret everything that I say, so I was just trying to show how crazy/stupid it is for him to do that. Thanks for playing along and emphasizing my point.

[C0ckney]

I don't see this extremely expensive process ever becoming common

if that's what you really believe then you clearly lack vison.

i agree with dans' and aggie's comments.

[Riesstiu IV]

You know there are a lot of prospects for genetically engineered humans. I want my designer baby to have super intelligence, super strength, and crazy eyes that glow blue like the Fremen. I also would like for him to eventually become an immortal god emperor of the known universe.

[DanS]

Would it be wrong if they could have, somehow, had that extra chromosone removed early on and had a healthy baby?

Unfortunately, right now we can't divorce the means and the ends. The procedure to "fix" this would be to have an abortion or to pre-screen embryos and discard the remainders. Both of these methods are distasteful to me.

But let's pretend that technology marches on and we could somehow fix this during pregnancy without use of these procedures. Would it then be alright to choose for other traits besides disease factors?

[Blaupanzer]

Should have clarified. When discussing this idea, we are arguing that the idea states that disabled people are not fit to live.

I disagree with Theben for once. I think this discussion has followed a trend which implied the "disabled" were not worthy of being born, that special parents regret the circumstances of the birth of their special children. You all seem to go directly to the belief that if you could alter the circumstances of your child's genetic code, then you would breed for intelligent aryan athletes.

The number of leaps over alternatives you all made to get to these positions appear to have alarmed Ben, who apparently has differently able siblings. I find it a bit scary that such an independent and quick-to-fight crew would all fall straight into a Star Trek episode, "the Wrath of Khan," without at least considering the value of multiple different frameworks when allowed to choose.

[Arrian]

Unfortunately, right now we can't divorce the means and the ends. The procedure to "fix" this would be to have an abortion or to pre-screen embryos and discard the remainders. Both of these methods are distasteful to me.

I agree with you. My scenario is apparently not currently possible.

But let's pretend that technology marches on and we could somehow fix this during pregnancy without use of these procedures. Would it then be alright to choose for other traits besides disease factors?

Not only that, we'd have to be awfully sure of how we define "disease" wouldn't we?

As for traits: I find the idea of picking your child's traits like you would order off a lunch menu distasteful. I consider that quite different than curing/repairing/whatever a birth defect.

Example: congenital scoliosis. I don't see a moral problem with fixing that before it develops. That's not eugenics (which I agree is a legit thing to fear). That strikes me as proper medicine. If a procedure had been available in 1976 that would've granted me a normal spine, man, I'd have wanted my parents to have it done.

-Arrian

[Zkribbler]

Of course a blind or deaf people is less of a person than those that aren't. If you measure humans, it has to be done by some criteria that's going to piss off someone. But by that same token, just about everyone out there is less of a person in some way, because just about all of us are pretty ****ed up. For example, some of us like to stick our naughty parts in the wrong hole.

If you are using these metrics to measure someone's humanity, you have no idea what it is to be human. (Hopefully, you're just trolling.)

[Ben Kenobi]

Hey, he feels free to distort and misinterpret everything that I say, so I was just trying to show how crazy/stupid it is for him to do that. Thanks for playing along and emphasizing my point

Where did I say that you personally believed disabled people should be killed? :hmm:

All I said is that we disagree where the train is headed. I apologise then if you thought I was referring to you personally.

[Ben Kenobi]

As for correcting serious malformations that would result in an early death, I wouldn't have an issue with that whatsoever. That would be an ethical use of that technology, to save the lives of those who would otherwise die.

[Theben]

I disagree with Theben for once.

Nothing wrong with that, but I'm not sure you did. What I stated (or alluded to) is that a large gene pool will have pressures on survival that will likely result in genes with fewer limiting traits overall than a group who has overcome those pressures. Darwin and Diamond said the same thing; Darwin just added that removing such people would be good for society.

BUT those people that survive anyway will be able to contribute now to the overall improvement of society even with disabilities b/c the limitations have been removed or minimized with modern medicine/technology. So they shouldn't be discounted based on their handicap alone.

[Theben]

At Ben: Darwin wasn't thought well of in his time, certainly not so much as today, but IMO his opinions smack of eugenics which very few people condone these days. I don't see how you reach the conclusion you did wrt your quote of his.

[Ben Kenobi]

At Ben: Darwin wasn't thought well of in his time, certainly not so much as today, but IMO his opinions smack of eugenics which very few people condone these days. I don't see how you reach the conclusion you did wrt your quote of his.

It's all the field of social darwinism.

Herbert Spencer and Francis Galton are the folks in question. They took Darwin's theories and applied them.