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  • Originally posted by Oerdin View Post
    It's nonviolent offenders. Mostly drug offenders.
    You mean this?

    February 10, 2009, 2:13 pm
    The Great California Prison Experiment
    By Steven D. Levitt
    INSERT DESCRIPTIONPhoto: itjournalist

    I published an academic paper back in 1996 that tried to measure the impact that changes in the prison population have on the crime rate. It turns out that this is a hard question.

    You can’t just look across states and compare incarceration rates and crime rates, because the places with the worst crime problem will also tend to have the most prisoners.

    Holding constant the punishments, the more crime that occurs, the greater the prison population. So correlations just are not very useful for determining whether prisons are effective or not.

    “While those crime numbers sound bad, according to my estimates, letting out the prisoners is more or less a wash from a societal cost-benefit perspective.”

    What you need is something more like a randomized experiment in which, for extraneous reasons, a whole bunch of prisoners get let out (or a whole bunch of extra criminals get locked up). For obvious reasons, the National Science Foundation would never give me a research grant to do that myself.

    Indirectly, however, the A.C.L.U. (or in the California case, another prisoners’ rights group) does the next best thing. It brings lawsuits against state prison systems arguing that the prisons are so overcrowded that they represent “cruel and unusual” punishment. The A.C.L.U. virtually always wins these suits. The state appeals, and roughly a decade after the suit is filed, the court’s initial decision is upheld and the A.C.L.U. is victorious.

    As I report in my paper, these lawsuits have a large impact on the prison populations in the affected states. After the suits are filed, but before any court decisions are handed down, prison populations grow more slowly in the litigation states.

    The preliminary court decision doesn’t have much of an effect. But when the final verdict is handed down, prison populations shrink by about 15 percent relative to the rest of the country over the next three years.

    Yesterday, a prisoners’ rights group won a preliminary decision against the state of California’s prison system. Consistent with my earlier results, the lawsuit already seems to have had some impact on California’s prison population. For instance, in 2007 California’s prison population shrank by about 1 percent, whereas the overall U.S. prison population grew by nearly 2 percent. It will take a few years before a final court decision is handed down, but the likely outcome is that five or six years from now there will be 25,000 fewer inmates than there otherwise would have been.

    What does this mean for crime? If my estimates are correct, ultimately violent crime will be roughly 6 percent higher in California than it would have been absent the lawsuit. That is roughly 150 extra homicides a year, 500 additional rapes, and 4,500 more robberies.

    While those crime numbers sound bad, according to my estimates, letting out the prisoners is more or less a wash from a societal cost-benefit perspective. The money we save from freeing the prisoners is on the same order of magnitude as the pain and suffering associated with the extra crime.

    I do have one very specific policy recommendation to the state of California. If they do a mass release of prisoners, it should be done with strings attached. Namely, if the released prisoner gets convicted of a crime again in the future, his sentence the next time around should be whatever it normally would be plus all of the time that he should have served on his current sentence that gets cut short because of the early release.

    This rule would strengthen the incentives for the ex-cons to stay straight. Italy enforced such a policy after a mass release, and it appears to have been quite effective.
    The A.C.L.U. has done it again, but this time on a grand scale. I published an academic paper back in 1996 that tried to measure the impact that changes in the prison population have on the crime rate. It turns out that this is a hard question.
    No, I did not steal that from somebody on Something Awful.

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    • Even if we grant the above (and I don't), hows about the interests of the 6 kids already in existence, huh?
      So you feel it would be better for the 6 if the 8 weren't ever born? I can't say I would be happier without my brothers. They have brought great comfort to me in the past while.

      That's some piss poor misdirection, Ben. No one would suggest a parent can shield their children from all suffering. It does not therefore logically follow that intentionally bringing suffering upon them is a good idea.
      No, you missed the point of my argument. I am arguing that Life IS suffering. Just bringing a life into the world, means that you will be exposing that child to suffering. I would argue that bringing a child into the world is "intentionally causing them suffering", but that it is a price of existence. Life is a good thing, and suffering can be a good thing too.

      One thing you can and should learn from your parents is the very basic concept of treating others with kindness and respect. You *do* learn important things (good/bad, depending on the parents) about interacting with the opposite sex... if dad is a mysogynistic bastard, well, you probably will be too. But Floyd's also right that you don't just figure this stuff out by watching and/or talking to your parents. Peers are important - not just to learn what to do, but also to learn what NOT to do.
      Good point. That's well said Arrian.
      Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
      "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
      2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

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      • Ben is the last person who should be a spokesperson against abortion.
        “As a lifelong member of the Columbia Business School community, I adhere to the principles of truth, integrity, and respect. I will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.”
        "Capitalism ho!"

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        • Originally posted by DaShi View Post
          Ben is the last person who should be a spokesperson against abortion.
          To be perfectly fair, there are other people who would be worse spokespeople against abortion.

          For instance, Benedict XVI. He's smart enough that he could probably come up with a few strong arguments, but I doubt he'd have his heart in it.
          B♭3

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          • Wait. WTF?

            The kids must be born first to have interests.
            From BEN?!?

            (I know, but context sucks and makes things much less funny )
            Solomwi is very wise. - Imran Siddiqui

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            • So you feel it would be better for the 6 if the 8 weren't ever born?
              In this particular sitation, yes.

              So, let's review: Single, unemployed/disabled mom with 6 kids, 2 (or 3?) of whom have special needs. She's clearly screwed up in the head - she had plastic surgery to make her look more like Angelina Jolie, and she had publicists (until recently, when they wisely decided to exit stage left) ready to try to turn this stunt into $. Under those circumstances, YES, it's better for the 6 if the 8 had never been. The woman probably isn't taking good care of the first 6, let alone all 14.

              This is simply not analogous to your family, Ben.

              In the case of a functioning family with a coupla kids, one more (probably) isn't going to result in neglect. I'm not saying there is some way to calculate this precisely, so that we can determine that the idea family size is 3.23 children or somesuch. I'm saying that single mom (with obvious issues) + 14 kids, some of whom have special needs = guaranteed neglect. This is an odd, particularly egregious case.

              Frankly, I struggle to imagine that child services won't have to step in here. It would be better if, somehow, the woman's family and/or other support groups could help her care for her brood. But given the track record here, and the fact that her church has apparently publicly denied any role in helping out... I don't see it.

              -Arrian
              grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

              The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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