Americans voted for Change

[DaShi]

You're all doing poorly! I win!

[Ramo]

The left saying force (torture is force) is not effective in compelling testimony is STUPID.

That was not the argument that I was making (see posts 225 and 228 if you're curious).

[TCO]

This is a poor showing, even for you. Still better than Vel, though.

The right saying waterboarding is not torture is STUPID.

I think it can be torture, depending on how it's applied. It's on the borderline.

I figured it was more like my normal showing. Where am I better?

[Drake Tungsten]

I was talking to Ramo. You haven't said anything stupid yet.

[TCO]

The left saying force (torture is force) is not effective in compelling testimony is STUPID.

That was not the argument that I was making (see posts 225 and 228 if you're curious).

Omar: I haven't read any of your comments. I am lazy about stuff like that. My comment was actually as written, on the general left and the general point.

[TCO]

The left saying force (torture is force) is not effective in compelling testimony is STUPID.

That was not the argument that I was making (see posts 225 and 228 if you're curious).

Omar: I haven't read any of your comments. I am lazy about stuff like that. My comment was actually as written, on the general left and the general point.

Wow, this is actually a 5 page thread...and I didn't bother reading it...there could be all kinds of great insights that I missed. Maybe Drake can give me stupid points for just blundering in.

[Drake Tungsten]

there could be all kinds of great insights that I missed.

Now that's a pretty stupid thing to say...

[Guynemer]

The right saying waterboarding is not torture is STUPID.

I think it can be torture, depending on how it's applied. It's on the borderline.

According to the UN Convention on Torture, signed by US President Ronald Reagan,

Article 1.
1. For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession...

Also of note:

Article 2.
1. Each State Party shall take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction.
2. No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.
3. An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture.

That pinko commie librul Reagan...

[Drake Tungsten]

the UN Convention on Torture

I do agree with this definition, though, for the most part...

torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession...

It's not clear that waterboarding is torture under this definition. It really depends on what you consider "mental suffering" and how severe it has to be before it crosses the torture threshold. I'm inclined to think that a practice that journalists will willingly subject themselves to for a story isn't torture on its face, but it could become so if done enough.

[chequita guevara]

It was ratified by teh Senate (i.e., it has the force of law) 21 Oct 1994.

[Ramo]

We don't need to follow no stinkin' treaties. We're 'murka.

[Ramo]

Also the Federal Anti-torture spells out what mental pain and suffering means under US law:

(1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
(2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—
(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
(C) the threat of imminent death; or
(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality; and
(3) “United States” means the several States of the United States, the District of Columbia, and the commonwealths, territories, and possessions of the United States.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00002340----000-.html

[Drake Tungsten]

I was going to go to school and run a Crystal Ball simulation of the expected costs of a plot to destroy the Library Tower, but I think I'm going to stay at home today and avoid the flu stalking the streets of NYC.

[Guynemer]

What does that have to do with anything?

Waterboarding is, by all definitions under US and international law, torture. Torture is, likewise, illegal. Can we agree that these are facts?

[Drake Tungsten]

Waterboarding is, by all definitions under US and international law, torture.

No. It's on the borderline and I understand why Bush Administration lawyers thought it would be permissible if its use were properly restricted and controlled.