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  • Frank Rich says this thread is mind numbingly stupid:




    April 26, 2009
    Op-Ed Columnist
    The Banality of Bush White House Evil
    By FRANK RICH
    WE don’t like our evil to be banal. Ten years after Columbine, it only now may be sinking in that the psychopathic killers were not jock-hating dorks from a “Trench Coat Mafia,” or, as ABC News maintained at the time, “part of a dark, underground national phenomenon known as the Gothic movement.” In the new best seller “Columbine,” the journalist Dave Cullen reaffirms that Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris were instead ordinary American teenagers who worked at the local pizza joint, loved their parents and were popular among their classmates.

    On Tuesday, it will be five years since Americans first confronted the photographs from Abu Ghraib on “60 Minutes II.” Here, too, we want to cling to myths that quarantine the evil. If our country committed torture, surely it did so to prevent Armageddon, in a patriotic ticking-time-bomb scenario out of “24.” If anyone deserves blame, it was only those identified by President Bush as “a few American troops who dishonored our country and disregarded our values”: promiscuous, sinister-looking lowlifes like Lynddie England, Charles Graner and the other grunts who were held accountable while the top command got a pass.

    We’ve learned much, much more about America and torture in the past five years. But as Mark Danner recently wrote in The New York Review of Books, for all the revelations, one essential fact remains unchanged: “By no later than the summer of 2004, the American people had before them the basic narrative of how the elected and appointed officials of their government decided to torture prisoners and how they went about it.” When the Obama administration said it declassified four new torture memos 10 days ago in part because their contents were already largely public, it was right.

    Yet we still shrink from the hardest truths and the bigger picture: that torture was a premeditated policy approved at our government’s highest levels; that it was carried out in scenarios that had no resemblance to “24”; that psychologists and physicians were enlisted as collaborators in inflicting pain; and that, in the assessment of reliable sources like the F.B.I. director Robert Mueller, it did not help disrupt any terrorist attacks.

    The newly released Justice Department memos, like those before them, were not written by barely schooled misfits like England and Graner. John Yoo, Steven Bradbury and Jay Bybee graduated from the likes of Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Michigan and Brigham Young. They have passed through white-shoe law firms like Covington & Burling, and Sidley Austin.

    Judge Bybee’s résumé tells us that he has four children and is both a Cubmaster for the Boy Scouts and a youth baseball and basketball coach. He currently occupies a tenured seat on the United States Court of Appeals. As an assistant attorney general, he was the author of the Aug. 1, 2002, memo endorsing in lengthy, prurient detail interrogation “techniques” like “facial slap (insult slap)” and “insects placed in a confinement box.”

    He proposed using 10 such techniques “in some sort of escalating fashion, culminating with the waterboard, though not necessarily ending with this technique.” Waterboarding, the near-drowning favored by Pol Pot and the Spanish Inquisition, was prosecuted by the United States in war-crimes trials after World War II. But Bybee concluded that it “does not, in our view, inflict ‘severe pain or suffering.’ ”

    Still, it’s not Bybee’s perverted lawyering and pornographic amorality that make his memo worthy of special attention. It merits a closer look because it actually does add something new — and, even after all we’ve heard, something shocking — to the five-year-old torture narrative. When placed in full context, it’s the kind of smoking gun that might free us from the myths and denial that prevent us from reckoning with this ugly chapter in our history.

    Bybee’s memo was aimed at one particular detainee, Abu Zubaydah, who had been captured some four months earlier, in late March 2002. Zubaydah is portrayed in the memo (as he was publicly by Bush after his capture) as one of the top men in Al Qaeda. But by August this had been proven false. As Ron Suskind reported in his book “The One Percent Doctrine,” Zubaydah was identified soon after his capture as a logistics guy, who, in the words of the F.B.I.’s top-ranking Qaeda analyst at the time, Dan Coleman, served as the terrorist group’s flight booker and “greeter,” like “Joe Louis in the lobby of Caesar’s Palace.” Zubaydah “knew very little about real operations, or strategy.” He showed clinical symptoms of schizophrenia.

    By the time Bybee wrote his memo, Zubaydah had been questioned by the F.B.I. and C.I.A. for months and had given what limited information he had. His most valuable contribution was to finger Khalid Shaikh Mohammed as the 9/11 mastermind. But, as Jane Mayer wrote in her book “The Dark Side,” even that contribution may have been old news: according to the 9/11 commission, the C.I.A. had already learned about Mohammed during the summer of 2001. In any event, as one of Zubaydah’s own F.B.I. questioners, Ali Soufan, wrote in a Times Op-Ed article last Thursday, traditional interrogation methods had worked. Yet Bybee’s memo purported that an “increased pressure phase” was required to force Zubaydah to talk.

    As soon as Bybee gave the green light, torture followed: Zubaydah was waterboarded at least 83 times in August 2002, according to another of the newly released memos. Unsurprisingly, it appears that no significant intelligence was gained by torturing this mentally ill Qaeda functionary. So why the overkill? Bybee’s memo invoked a ticking time bomb: “There is currently a level of ‘chatter’ equal to that which preceded the September 11 attacks.”

    We don’t know if there was such unusual “chatter” then, but it’s unlikely Zubaydah could have added information if there were. Perhaps some new facts may yet emerge if Dick Cheney succeeds in his unexpected and welcome crusade to declassify documents that he says will exonerate administration interrogation policies. Meanwhile, we do have evidence for an alternative explanation of what motivated Bybee to write his memo that August, thanks to the comprehensive Senate Armed Services Committee report on detainees released last week.

    The report found that Maj. Paul Burney, a United States Army psychiatrist assigned to interrogations in Guantánamo Bay that summer of 2002, told Army investigators of another White House imperative: “A large part of the time we were focused on trying to establish a link between Al Qaeda and Iraq and we were not being successful.” As higher-ups got more “frustrated” at the inability to prove this connection, the major said, “there was more and more pressure to resort to measures” that might produce that intelligence.

    In other words, the ticking time bomb was not another potential Qaeda attack on America but the Bush administration’s ticking timetable for selling a war in Iraq; it wanted to pressure Congress to pass a war resolution before the 2002 midterm elections. Bybee’s memo was written the week after the then-secret (and subsequently leaked) “Downing Street memo,” in which the head of British intelligence informed Tony Blair that the Bush White House was so determined to go to war in Iraq that “the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy.” A month after Bybee’s memo, on Sept. 8, 2002, Cheney would make his infamous appearance on “Meet the Press,” hyping both Saddam’s W.M.D.s and the “number of contacts over the years” between Al Qaeda and Iraq. If only 9/11 could somehow be pinned on Iraq, the case for war would be a slamdunk.

    But there were no links between 9/11 and Iraq, and the White House knew it. Torture may have been the last hope for coercing such bogus “intelligence” from detainees who would be tempted to say anything to stop the waterboarding.

    Last week Bush-Cheney defenders, true to form, dismissed the Senate Armed Services Committee report as “partisan.” But as the committee chairman, Carl Levin, told me, the report received unanimous support from its members — John McCain, Lindsey Graham and Joe Lieberman included.

    Levin also emphasized the report’s accounts of military lawyers who dissented from White House doctrine — only to be disregarded. The Bush administration was “driven,” Levin said. By what? “They’d say it was to get more information. But they were desperate to find a link between Al Qaeda and Iraq.”

    Five years after the Abu Ghraib revelations, we must acknowledge that our government methodically authorized torture and lied about it. But we also must contemplate the possibility that it did so not just out of a sincere, if criminally misguided, desire to “protect” us but also to promote an unnecessary and catastrophic war. Instead of saving us from “another 9/11,” torture was a tool in the campaign to falsify and exploit 9/11 so that fearful Americans would be bamboozled into a mission that had nothing to do with Al Qaeda. The lying about Iraq remains the original sin from which flows much of the Bush White House’s illegality.

    Levin suggests — and I agree — that as additional fact-finding plays out, it’s time for the Justice Department to enlist a panel of two or three apolitical outsiders, perhaps retired federal judges, “to review the mass of material” we already have. The fundamental truth is there, as it long has been. The panel can recommend a legal path that will insure accountability for this wholesale betrayal of American values.

    President Obama can talk all he wants about not looking back, but this grotesque past is bigger than even he is. It won’t vanish into a memory hole any more than Andersonville, World War II internment camps or My Lai. The White House, Congress and politicians of both parties should get out of the way. We don’t need another commission. We don’t need any Capitol Hill witch hunts. What we must have are fair trials that at long last uphold and reclaim our nation’s commitment to the rule of law.
    “As a lifelong member of the Columbia Business School community, I adhere to the principles of truth, integrity, and respect. I will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.”
    "Capitalism ho!"

    Comment


    • FT > NYT

      Mr Obama got it right first time. Bringing prosecutions would be a mistake. To see why, it is necessary to separate two questions that are routinely muddled together: whether methods such as waterboarding are ever justified, and whether they are legal. The answer to neither question is self-evident, but the key thing is that they are different questions.

      To many critics of the Bush administration, it is all so simple: waterboarding is torture, and thus both impossible to justify and illegal. Some prop up their certainty by denying that waterboarding can ever succeed in extracting vital information. If that were true, of course, the dilemma at the centre of this controversy would evaporate. The dilemma is real, in my view, precisely because torture might sometimes work. CIA officers and senior intelligence officials have said that “harsh interrogation” did yield important information.

      The Bush administration’s more honest critics accept that possibility, but argue that it does not justify these brutal methods. They are right. The damage that practices such as waterboarding do to US standing in the world, their power as a recruiting aid for terrorists, and – to my mind, most important of all – the harm they do to the country’s idea of itself as a force for good outweigh any plausible benefits. Methods that shame the nation are both wrong and counter-productive even if they can claim a measure of success in the narrower sense.

      But this already far from simple issue gets even more complicated when you turn from the question of justification to the law. Many just take it for granted that waterboarding is torture, and hence illegal. The convoluted legal defences in the memos are so false, in their view, that they compound the crime. The bizarre care the memos prescribe to guard against lasting physical harm to suspects, for instance, is dismissed as a sham that only makes the enterprise more disgusting.

      Not so fast. Common sense may tell you waterboarding is torture, but the law is less clear-cut. Congress should make waterboarding a crime, for the reasons I have stated, and it has had many chances before and since 9/11 to do so. The fact is, it has chosen not to. Some of those in Congress now calling for prosecutions, including Nancy Pelosi, speaker of the House, were briefed about these methods in the panic-stricken aftermath of 9/11 and offered no objection.

      It is worth noting that the methods in question were adopted from the training US soldiers undergo to resist interrogation. This underlines the fact that using these methods lowers the US to the level of its enemies. But it also suggests that distinctions may be made between waterboarding and, say, breaking on the rack. Unsurprisingly, US soldiers are not subjected to that technique as part of their training. Journalists and YouTube video-makers have undergone waterboarding, the better to pronounce it torture. None that I know of has volunteered to be flayed, or have his fingers crushed.

      So far as moral and tactical justification goes, this can be set aside. Waterboarding is shameful, and one may leave it at that. To repeat, Mr Obama was right to forswear its use and that of other brutal measures. But the law does not set these points aside. If the lawyers who worked on the memos can show a court that they worked in good faith, under extreme pressure, to design methods that fell short of torture – in its legal, not commonsense, meaning – they would be innocent of knowingly shielding illegality. They have a strong case.




      A good, sensible op-ed.
      KH FOR OWNER!
      ASHER FOR CEO!!
      GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!

      Comment


      • Yup, one that doesn't let facts get in the way.
        “As a lifelong member of the Columbia Business School community, I adhere to the principles of truth, integrity, and respect. I will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.”
        "Capitalism ho!"

        Comment


        • Or note that previous administrations prosecuting enemies of the U.S. in the past said waterboarding was torture.
          I'm consitently stupid- Japher
          I think that opinion in the United States is decidedly different from the rest of the world because we have a free press -- by free, I mean a virgorously presented right wing point of view on the air and available to all.- Ned

          Comment


          • Obama references Andrew Sullivan, predictably gets facts wrong...

            Is Barack Obama reading blogs, particularly the site of one of his campaign's most committed supporters, Andrew Sullivan?

            At his press conference on Wednesday evening, the president defended his decision to end the use of torture on detainees, by citing an article he had recently read, in which it was noted that during World War II, Winston Churchill refused to use such tactics on the spies captured by the British.

            "I was struck by an article that I was reading the other day talking about the fact that the British during World War II, when London was being bombed to smithereens, had 200 or so detainees," said Obama. "And Churchill said, 'We don't torture,' when the entire British -- all of the British people were being subjected to unimaginable risk and threat."

            Which article he was referencing was a mystery to both the press corps and members of Obama's own communications team who, in the minutes after the press conference, professed to being in the dark.

            Challenged to do some digging, the Huffington Post's Marcus Baram found what seemed to be the right match.

            On April 23, Sullivan, a native of England himself, penned a post titled: "Churchill vs Cheney." In it, the Atlantic scribe noted that despite having "captured over 500 enemy spies operating in Britain and elsewhere," and having his country's "very survival [hanging] in the balance," Churchill "knew that embracing torture was the equivalent of surrender to the barbarism he was fighting."

            Asked whether the Sullivan post was, in fact, the point of reference for Obama's remarks, aides to the president did not immediately return request for comment. But the similarities are certainly suggestive.




            Andrew Sullivan and I have been told fairly regularly that President Obama reads his blog and has been influenced by Sullivan's writing on torture. We seem to have some proof now.... (A senior administration official confirms that Obama was citing Sullivan.)


            The Atlantic covers news, politics, culture, technology, health, and more, through its articles, podcasts, videos, and flagship magazine.


            But the president did make one glaring error. He said, when discussing torture, that he'd read an article recently saying how Churchill, at the height of the blitz, said of Great Britain "we don't torture."

            He may well have read such an article, and Churchill may well have made such a statement. But Britain did torture. Says who? Says the Guardian. I refer you, friends, to The Cage.

            The other day I was sitting in the Washington office and my Guardian colleague Chris McGreal came up to me to talk about the subject of torture and the debate over its effectiveness. Chris pointed out to me that in Kensington during the second war, there was a facility known as The Cage inside which Nazi prisoners -- chiefly U-boat captains, but others -- were routinely tortured.

            Then our colleague Richard Adams piped up to say that the Guardian had done a big piece on it a few years back. Indeed it had. Ian Cobain wrote it in 2005. And here it is. You really must read it, it's terrific stuff.




            Andrew Sullivan is, of course, the blogger who spent a great deal of the 2008 election spinning conspiracy theories about the real parentage of Sarah Palin's youngest child. I'm glad to see that he's influential in the thought processes of the President of the United States.
            KH FOR OWNER!
            ASHER FOR CEO!!
            GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!

            Comment


            • Obama Pleased not Satisfied

              BBC, News, BBC News, news online, world, uk, international, foreign, british, online, service



              They were among his first big decisions - to close Guantanamo, shut down the CIA's secret prisons, and end the intelligence agency's "enhanced" interrogation programme.

              In one sense, they had an immediate result - breaking with the Bush administration and improving America's tarnished global image.
              Socrates: "Good is That at which all things aim, If one knows what the good is, one will always do what is good." Brian: "Romanes eunt domus"
              GW 2013: "and juistin bieber is gay with me and we have 10 kids we live in u.s.a in the white house with obama"

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Drake Tungsten View Post
                Drake, you know I love you, you crazy bastard, but if we can't even agree on the fact that waterboarding obviously fits the US and International Red Cross definitions of torture, there is no ****ing point to this.


                Actually, it doesn't really matter if we agree on calling it "torture" or not. 71% of Americans are on my side (ie. enhanced interrogations might be worth the cost in some cases) even if you call the techniques "torture"...

                Overview Amid intense debate over the use of torture against suspected terrorists, public opinion about this issue remains fairly stable. Currently,


                I wouldn't care a whit about using the term "torture" (even if I think it's inaccurate) to describe enhanced interrogations if it wasn't a means of shutting off debate on whether these techniques are worthwhile or not.
                This just demonstrates how far out on a limb that Obama is on this issue. Even people like myself who find enhanced interrogations very distasteful don't buy his black-and-white arguments.
                I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                Comment


                • Quit using the Orwellian NewSpeak, Dan. "Enhanced interrogations" = torture. You can say the word. Torture.

                  And it is illegal by the letter of US and international law, pure and simple.
                  "My nation is the world, and my religion is to do good." --Thomas Paine
                  "The subject of onanism is inexhaustable." --Sigmund Freud

                  Comment


                  • It just shows how far off the deep end the right has gone and how unAmerican they are.
                    Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

                    Comment


                    • It just shows how far off the deep end the right has gone and how unAmerican they are.


                      71% of Americans = "the right"?
                      KH FOR OWNER!
                      ASHER FOR CEO!!
                      GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Drake Tungsten View Post
                        It just shows how far off the deep end the right has gone and how unAmerican they are.


                        71% of Americans = "the right"?
                        From the rest of the world's prespective this sounds about right.
                        Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
                        The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
                        The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila

                        Comment


                        • No offense, but the only part of the "rest of the world" that the United States should be looking to for guidance is Canada.
                          KH FOR OWNER!
                          ASHER FOR CEO!!
                          GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Guynemer View Post
                            Quit using the Orwellian NewSpeak, Dan. "Enhanced interrogations" = torture. You can say the word. Torture.

                            And it is illegal by the letter of US and international law, pure and simple.
                            There is a list of techniques. It is arguable whether any of those techniques are torture. The stress positions and waterboarding are on the edge.

                            And it's not so pure and simple.
                            I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                            Comment


                            • Waterboarding is not on the edge. Stress positions are, though.
                              “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                              - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                              Comment




                              • The Obama administration is moving toward reviving the military commission system for prosecuting Guantánamo detainees, which was a target of critics during the Bush administration, including Mr. Obama himself.

                                ....
                                I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                                For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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