Americans voted for Change

[Kuciwalker]

Velo: following up on the confirmation bias bit: that means you're entire stream of "LOL drake is ridiculous" is based ENTIRELY on your assumption that the conclusion you've drawn (i.e. the effectiveness of torture is zero) is correct. Drake's argument is only based on the idea it might be nonzero.

[Theben]

I'm more curious about the current DOJ/Admin shifting points wrt prosecutions. While I'd like to think it's a play by Obama to let the DOJ actually perform/take responsibility for them so as to not alienate the CIA (who he needs on his side), I think it's more likely going to be a ruse by the admin to mollify the left.

[Kuciwalker]

Military rules for the treatment of a specific class of person, when dealing with a different class of person.

What? It is illegal for the military to engage in the practices we're discussing. And it was illegal 8 years ago. Regardless of the class of person.

Are those laws based on the assumption that everyone the military holds is a POW under Geneva?

[Velociryx]

Kuci, as ever, you're entitled to your opinions. I've already agreed that we're unlikely to change each other's minds (which makes this entire thread rather pointless, except that it's once again demonstrated that there's no such thing as a civil debate on 'poly anymore).

You feel that torture has some practical value? That the ends justify the means? That somehow the (limited) reliable information we MIGHT get from torturing another human being can in any way be compared to what it costs the soul of the nation? That's your call, and I'm not going to waste time or breath trying to convince you otherwise. Personally, MY opinion on the matter is that you're well on your way down a very slippery slope, but *shrug* so be it.

As to the last bit, Anyone can quote Nietzsche. Bring this quote up again when we're slaughtering civilians for our own propaganda.

This doesn't make the first bit of sense in the context of the current discussion, but kudos on the artful dodge.

-=Vel=-

[Theben]

Velo: following up on the confirmation bias bit: that means you're entire stream of "LOL drake is ridiculous" is based ENTIRELY on your assumption that the conclusion you've drawn (i.e. the effectiveness of torture is zero) is correct. Drake's argument is only based on the idea it might be nonzero.

That still goes back to your question of cost/benefit analysis. In Vel's mind the answer is all too obvious. Personally I haven't seen anything to convince me that the bennies are real... even in the so-called "ticking time-bomb" scenarios.

[Theben]

Are those laws based on the assumption that everyone the military holds is a POW under Geneva?

Haven't we already had this discussion?

[Velociryx]

That still goes back to your question of cost/benefit analysis. In Vel's mind the answer is all too obvious. Personally I haven't seen anything to convince me that the bennies are real... even in the so-called "ticking time-bomb" scenarios.

Theben.

And it's likely that you won't find much (if anything) in the way of tangible proof that the benefits are real. Each side has its "experts," and the best you can hope to do is read materials from both sides of the proverbial fence and then decide what kind of America you'd prefer to see.

The chances of actually changing someone's mind once a conclusion has been reached are practically nil, however, as the arguments from "the other side" begin to look...alien.

-=Vel=-

[Ramo]

Are those laws based on the assumption that everyone the military holds is a POW under Geneva?

No.

So? It's just not reasonable to assume that I hold the state to anywhere near the same standard for external and internal use of force.

The magnitudes of these forces are not remotely comparable by any reasonable metric. To repeat, we're comparing torture (such as being waterboarded multiple times daily for a lengthy period of time) to having whatever income you make over $250k taxed at a 3% higher tax rate. Them being furriners does not mitigate the bulk of this difference. You can disagree, but you would sound insane.

[Kuciwalker]

Kuci, as ever, you're entitled to your opinions. I've already agreed that we're unlikely to change each other's minds (which makes this entire thread rather pointless, except that it's once again demonstrated that there's no such thing as a civil debate on 'poly anymore).

I've been perfectly civil, apart from the bit where I yelled at Ramo for assuming I was an idiot

You feel that torture has some practical value

I don't dismiss the possibility out of hand.

That the ends justify the means?

Yes, always, obviously. Any counterexample you care to give can be shown to be just another "the ends are bad" scenario.

That somehow the (limited) reliable information we MIGHT get from torturing another human being can in any way be compared to what it costs the soul of the nation?

That's a really fancy way of invoking the slippery slope, which I reject in this case. Do you really see "we're just like North Korea" as the ultimate end of us torturing some terrorists?

As to the last bit, Anyone can quote Nietzsche. Bring this quote up again when we're slaughtering civilians for our own propaganda.

This doesn't make the first bit of sense in the context of the current discussion, but kudos on the artful dodge.

It makes perfect sense. In this case, the metaphor for "the abyss" is AQ. I suppose you could alternately construct it as North Korea, in which case I'd say 'bring this up again when the entire country is starving and the country is an oppressive police state no one is permitted to leave'.

[Kuciwalker]

No.

OK, I'll admit I am just not familiar enough with the laws you're talk about to have an input there.

So? It's just not reasonable to assume that I hold the state to anywhere near the same standard for external and internal use of force.

The magnitudes of these forces are not remotely comparable by any reasonable metric. To repeat, we're comparing torture (such as being waterboarded multiple times daily for a lengthy period of time) to having whatever income you make over $250k taxed at a 3% higher tax rate. Them being furriners does not mitigate the bulk of this difference. You can disagree, but you would sound insane.

Sure, here's a reasonable metric: the torture applies to several orders of magnitude fewer people than the tax increase

BTW, is there a way to TURN OFF the advanced editing controls? I end up writing my posts in notepad just to get the quotes to work

[Theben]

I don't dismiss the possibility out of hand.

It wasn't dismissed out of hand. It was examined, found wanting, then dismissed.

That the ends justify the means?

Yes, always, obviously. Any counterexample you care to give can be shown to be just another "the ends are bad" scenario.

Always, obviously? Aren't you dismissing the opposing opinion out of hand?

And make sure you include everything when summing up the 'ends'.

[Theben]

BTW, Kuci, quoting you sucks.

[Velociryx]

Well said, Theben, and thank you.

Only thing I can add to that is that it's not called "the slippery end points" but "the slippery slope" so we don't have to end up like AQ or NK to do considerable damage to the fabric of the nation.

There are those of us (quite a number, actually), who don't even want to flirt with that kind of damage, and who have rejected the arguments of those who "only want to torture a few terrorists."

Again, it all depends on what kind of America you want to see, and there will be few minds changed by whatever arguments are put forth in a "debate thread" on a gaming site.

-=Vel=-

[Drake Tungsten]

Shorter Vel - The moral cost of enhanced interrogations is incalculably large and the potential benefits of enhanced interrogations are zero.

These are obviously sound assumptions.

[Velociryx]

Shorter Drake - The bad guys torture. We should use "enhanced interrogation techniques" (it's really torture, but that word makes me squemish, so I'll use the PC term for it so I can feel better about supporting the position), but don't worry. Cheny sez it's reliable, so it must be, and we run no risk of ever becoming "like them" when we engage in reprehensible behaviors.

It's for the greater good, see?

-=Vel=-

(God Bless America! Now where did I put my knife set, box springs, and car battery?)