Americans voted for Change

[Velociryx]

Torture IS bad. Our allies are of one mind on this, and until the Bush era, we were pretty much on that page too. America used to be a true moral force, and we weaken that position if we demean ourselves by stooping to such measures. In a word, we lessen our influence in the world. Depending on how much value you place on diplomacy, that's either completely irrelevant or pretty darned important. I'm of the latter opinion.

Some folks (mostly ardent Bush supporters...no surprise there) will tell you that torture is a good way to get information out of people. A majority of folks will tell you otherwise. You could cite sources that display it as a credible method of gathering intel. Someone else could cite sources saying the opposite, but in the wider world, beyond ideologies, there's a general sense that it's not terribly reliable.

Then there are the people who bring up the hypothetical "yes, but what if you were holding a person who knew where a bomb was planted in a major metropolitan area and you only had one hour to find and diffuse it...you'd torture him then, wouldn't you? You'd do whatever you had to in order to save all those lives!"

The reality is...in all of recorded history, we can't seem to come up with a time when we've been in that situation, and we're likely never to come face to face WITH that situation, so the answer to the hypothetical really doesn't matter.

What matters is that, like slavery, torture is wrong.

It's just not something you subject another human being to, no matter how terrible you think they are.

That's my two cents.

You are free to disagree.

-=Vel=-

[OneFootInTheGrave]

well if you give me the right to torture, and bring TheNavySeal, NGR (*or anyone else for that matter) here in "free torture zone" I will conclusively prove that they conspired together to bring down twin towers, have them all sign that out of their own free will, admit to the crimes, thus solving the issue forever. Torture is that effective.

[TheNavySeal]

well if you give me the right to torture, and bring TheNavySeal, NGR (*or anyone else for that matter) here in "free torture zone" I will conclusively prove that they conspired together to bring down twin towers, have them all sign that out of their own free will, admit to the crimes, thus solving the issue forever. Torture is that effective.

That is why you only torture people you know guaranteed that have the info you need. If you get the person you need that has the info they will give you the info you need no doubt about it. Until another effective way of getting the required info is thought up and out in action (more like psychological torture) this form of torture is our only option. I'd rather save the lives of innocent people then know that the attack could have been prevented but wasn't because of someones "moral" convictions.

[Velociryx]

You mean...people like Dilawar?

-=Vel=-

[Elok]

That is why you only torture people you know guaranteed that have the info you need. If you get the person you need that has the info they will give you the info you need no doubt about it. Until another effective way of getting the required info is thought up and out in action (more like psychological torture) this form of torture is our only option. I'd rather save the lives of innocent people then know that the attack could have been prevented but wasn't because of someones "moral" convictions.

History teaches us that religious zealots can't stand to be tortured, and invariably give in.

[Ramo]

That is why you only torture people you know guaranteed that have the info you need.

Yeah, that's the way it works.

[Blaupanzer]

Interesting that people who actually know something have mostly been quiet on this. For the most part torture is not particular useful, especially beyond the 48 hour point, in eliciting information of value. In limited cases, never to be revealed, some info arrived in intel circles that muct have come from an onslaught rush on a well-placed recently captured individual. While OneFootInTheGrave is right, a torturer can get anyone to admit anything fairly rapidly, that sort of confession is only useful to placate the public. We signed a treaty many years ago that we wouldn't do it. That treaty (Convention) has the force of law. Obama is right to put a stop to officially sanctioning US Government employees to violate that law.

I have credentials in the intel field, the name indicates TheNavySeal may also know whereof he speaks. What precisely is your expertise NGR?

[Elok]

Darn. If only I'd picked "GrandInquisitor" as my username like I'd been planning to, I'd be an expert on this subject...

[snoopy369]

Nah; a grand inquisitor would be sneaky, and use a username that has no relation to his profession. Like, "Elok", for example.

[Velociryx]

Ewok?

They don't torture!

.....Do they?



-=Vel=-

[Thoth]

Ewok?

They don't torture!

.....Do they?



-=Vel=-

Ewoks? They're small, cute and fuzzy. Of course they torture. They make the SS look like Girl Guides in comparison. Never, ever trust small, furry, cute looking sentients. They're all evil sadists.

[Elok]

Yubyub! Yubyub!

[Nugog]

So you guys are saying torture is bad. So what do you purpose to get info out of the terrorist (or person under suspicion)? What are you gonna do give them a hotdog and hope they give you what you want?

So - if the Canadian Government grabs some Americans they believe are "terrorists" or "spies" or otherwise - is it OK for them to torture them?

[Darius871]

Knock it off guys, TNS is obviously a troll.

[Theben]

I'm pretty sure TNS is a kid.