How Long Will It Take To Get An Obama Holiday?

[Imran Siddiqui]

I'd like an apology from you as well Imran.

Ain't getting one. You run your mouth off and then claim "I was mistaken" left and right. Bull. You are just a liar that backtracks when he gets caught.

[Bosh]

Gah, can you people please stop quoting Ben? Haven't you figured out by now that arguing with him never, ever does the least bit of good?

The ignore list, it does nothing!

[Darius871]

Where have I lied?

You lied on this thread. Because, frankly, I don't believe you when you said you made a "mistake". You tend to make a lot of "mistakes" in political/US History discussions. I think you are trying to sneak a lie in and then have to back track when you get caught.

Er, more importantly Rufus didn't even call Ben a liar to begin with. He asked if Ben was "stupid, a liar, or both". Since it turns out that Ben (allegedly) made an honest mistake rather than lying about what was known to be false, then the answer to Rufus' question is that Ben is not a liar nor both stupid and a liar, but rather merely stupid.

QED

[Imran Siddiqui]

Awesome

[Ben Kenobi]

Ain't getting one. You run your mouth off and then claim "I was mistaken" left and right. Bull. You are just a liar that backtracks when he gets caught.

You call me a liar when I was explicitly referring to out of wedlock births?

Then you have the gall to quote some entirely different statistic in your attempt to call me a liar?

I don't know whether to laugh at you or cry, if you honestly think that is a good argument. I mean really. You are trained as a lawyer. Do you call the opposite counsul a liar in court? I'm surprised you haven't had your ass sued off for defamation.

If you've got some evidence besides pulling it out of your ass, then go right ahead. Otherwise, I'd like an apology.

Anyways, here are some stats. Are you seriously claiming that out of wedlock births haven't climbed? I mean seriously.

http://wfnetwork.bc.edu/statistics_template.php?id=2016

[Darius871]

Awesome

The fact that such simple reading comprehension and logic escapes Ben only strengthens the case for Door #1.

This isn't exactly an LSAT-level question here.

[Ben Kenobi]

He asked if Ben was "stupid, a liar, or both". Since it turns out that Ben (allegedly) made an honest mistake rather than lying about what was known to be false, then the answer to Rufus' question is that Ben is not a liar nor both stupid and a liar, but rather merely stupid.

Even I have to laugh at that.

I guess my way of seeing is that stupidity is in the eye of the beholder, while lying is a fact.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Where have I lied? If Rufus has proof that I lied, then I'd like to see that. Otherwise I'd like an apology from him.

edit - Alas, Darius beat me to in. Still:

I never said you lied. I said that lying was one of the two possible explanations for your posts, the other being stupidity.

I note that you failed to grasp the difference between that and being called a liar.

I also note that you're not challenging the assumption that you may be truthful, but stupid.

And, of course, I note that those two previous points might be related.

Finally, I'll ask you to again recall the thread in which you asserted that, because I had misspelled (by one letter) the name of a relatively obscure court case (Boynton vs. VA, here spelled correctly), I didn't know anything about the topic at hand.

Your rules, Ben: a simple mistake bespeaks your total ignorance and disqualifies your opinion from further consideration. Now, I'm with Imran -- I think you tend to either lie or talk out your ass, then backtrack when nailed -- but even if it was a simple mistake, surely your own credo demands that you go back to touching yourself while surfing US Immigration sites, or whatever it is you do when your not here.

[Imran Siddiqui]

You call me a liar when I was explicitly referring to out of wedlock births?

I'll quote you and the quote you were referring to again:

-- benefited poor whites every bit as much.

Benefitted? It's a disaster. White folks aren't quite as badly off with their families, but they are much worse off now then they were 40 years ago.

Oh, and: Liar.

And quite obviously, you were referring to illegitimacy as one of the reasons why the Great Society was horrible for black people, not its sole cause. And -Jrabbit turned around and said the Great Society benefited whites as much as blacks. Or do you think that increasing illegitimacy is the only thing the Great Society did wrong? That's the only way that "explicitly referring to out of wedlock births" makes sense. Though I think you dislike it for many other reasons too, making you a liar about what you were referring to, doesn't it?

[Ben Kenobi]

I also note that you're not challenging the assumption that you may be truthful, but stupid.

I honestly don't care if you folks think I'm stupid or whatever. As I said, that's a matter of taste. I expect folks to see opinions that they disagree with as stupid, it's the natural reaction to being challenged.

Lying on the other hand is a different matter altogether. You made a very good point about King's daughter, and I'm surprised you didn't throw his wife out there as well. I expected that point.

I just don't believe that King's legacy is as cut and dried as some say it would be. It bothers me when I see folks say, "well of course King would support this", as I have with Obama. MLK was a very different man from Obama. This is why I quoted his neice. They are both taking his legacy and going in very different directions. That to me shows that the man isn't as easy to compartmentalise as some would think.

Do I believe he would be disgusted with the changes in society since the 60's? Yes. I think much of it would break his heart frankly.

Finally, I'll ask you to again recall the thread in which you asserted that, because I had misspelled (by one letter) the name of a relatively obscure court case (Boynton vs. VA, here spelled correctly), I didn't know anything about the topic at hand.

That was my point. You dug up the case and misspelled it so I suspected you weren't very solid at all on the case. Had you not cited it, I wouldn't have cared, but if you cite something which I read and then find it's not very helpful, I'm going to say what I did. If you are going to go out of your way to cite something, at least make sure that you've read it, please. I don't think that's too much to ask.

Your rules, Ben: a simple mistake bespeaks your total ignorance and disqualifies your opinion from further consideration.

It was quite a bit more then that, which you admitted. I'm not a stickler about typos and things like that, so long as the message is clear, that's the most important thing. When you go to cite a case and misspell it, that just made me wonder what was up.

Now, I'm with Imran -- I think you tend to either lie or talk out your ass, then backtrack when nailed -- but even if it was a simple mistake, surely your own credo demands that you go back to touching
yourself while surfing US Immigration sites, or whatever it is you do when your not here.

I don't know what you folks want more then your pound of flesh. I admitted my error. Far as I'm concerned the issue is over. I'd rather you folks focussed on the argument then on the person.

Does it make you feel better about yourself to say these things? I mean really? Why bother? Do you honestly think it will make me respect your opinions more?

[Ben Kenobi]

And quite obviously, you were referring to illegitimacy as one of the reasons why the Great Society was horrible for black people, not its sole cause.

No, I'm not sure where you got that from. The only thing I explicitly mentioned was illegitimacy. You may have thought I said that, but that wasn't what I said.

And -Jrabbit turned around and said the Great Society benefited whites as much as blacks.

Depends on how you see 'benefit'. In terms of illegitimacy, that is not the case.

Or do you think that increasing illegitimacy is the only thing the Great Society did wrong?

That is the only thing I was really discussing. I think the most substantial problem that emerged from the Great society is illegitimacy. This, btw is Sowell's thesis.

Though I think you dislike it for many other reasons too, making you a liar about what you were referring to, doesn't it?

Such as? You seem to be attributing motives which aren't there. I'm curious what you think they are. I've only mentioned illegitimacy.

[Darius871]

As I said, that's a matter of taste. I expect folks to see opinions that they disagree with as stupid, it's the natural reaction to being challenged.

That's not even remotely true. There are countless people with whom I vehemently disagree while simultaneously conceding they are far more intelligent than I, and people whose conclusions match mine precisely but who got there through moronic reasoning.

[-Jrabbit]

Why not? Dr. King was a Baptist Minister.

So what??? Still unsupported.

Why do you believe that King would reject Keyes?

Did I say that? No. All I said was that your contention is laughable and unsupported. The laughter is mine. Reason for laughter: using hypotheticals as lame support for your agenda.

I don't see where you get off calling me a racist.

Now who's seeing things? I have never called you a racist, Ben.

If I lived in the Beniverse, you would owe me an apology.

[Ben Kenobi]

Even better is your TOTALLY RACIST contention

I notice you aren't even bothering to argue that Sowell is a racist. Gee, I wonder why.

[Ben Kenobi]

That's not even remotely true. There are countless people with whom I vehemently disagree while simultaneously conceding they are far more intelligent than I, and people whose conclusions match mine precisely but who got there through moronic reasoning.

Good, somebody caught that.

If you vehemently disagree with them and you are far more intelligent then them, why are you the one who's using insults?