Latest Middle East Thread

[GePap]

I dunno.

Their lives are being derailed by a group of of fundamentalist thugs, who provoke Israel into ever growing responses.

Yeah, and what about the ones who live in the West Bank? What do they have to live for?

Instead of trying to remove the fundamentalist thugs, making the situation better for both peoples, the international community usually focuses on trying to curtail the Israeli response, to a "tolerable" one.

Israel is fed up of tolerable. It is fed up of "tolerable" attacks on Israeli cities. It is fed up of "tolerable" Israeli counter-attacks.

Even before this last attack, hundreds of palestinian civilians were killed every year by Israeli military action.

Israelis want the conflict to stop, and Israel's PMs have been willing to go a long way towards Palestinian positions, that haven't really moved in 16 years of dialogue.

The Palestinians want it to stop as well. Both of you want it to stop on your own terms though, which is a problem. And the Palestinians have also moved towards the Israeli position in 16 years.

But Israelis are getting fed up, and our responses will be "intolerable" in hope the other side stops shooting.

Has that work yet? No, it hasn't. Oh well.....

Today Livni said that the Israeli blockade policy can easily be reverted if Hamas releases Corp. Gilad Shalit, whom Hamas kidnapped from Israeli soil, on July 2006.

Israel, as the occupying power in Gaza (Yes, Israel remains the occupying power in Gaza given its continued claims towards full control over Gaza's territorial waters and airspace, as well as border crossings) is reponsible for the welfare of the population. Clearly this is a responsibility that the current Israeli government is failing utterly to upkeep. Blackmailing 1.5 million people to get back one hostage is not the behavior of a responsible member of the international community.

[Sirotnikov]

Yeah, and what about the ones who live in the West Bank? What do they have to live for?

They can realistically achieve a peace agreement with Israel, and if the PLO proves it is no longer dominated by incapability and corruption, they can reach good quality of life, and a state status.

Obviously the conflict with Hamas does affects the Israeli public view on the viability of such a peace accord.


Btw, it's not like Israelis are convinced of a bright future.

Many are quite fatalistic in light of the insolvability of the conflict with the palestinians, as well as expected future tensions with Israeli arabs. And don't get me going on what ever will happen with Iran.

Even before this last attack, hundreds of palestinian civilians were killed every year by Israeli military action.

Even before the last round of rocket attacks, we had previous rocket attacks, several attempts at smuggling suicide bombers into Israel, and the kidnapping of a soldier from Israeli soil.

I don't see your point at all. I wasn't making a point justifying Israeli reaction, but describing the Israeli mood, and criticizing meek international efforts to "contain" the problem, instead of taking bold steps to solve it.

I could have a totally different view on the required permanent solution that you, or the international community, but I think that taking bold steps, even contrary to Israeli interests, that could end this bleeding wound of a conflict, are better than 'containment'.

The Palestinians want it to stop as well. Both of you want it to stop on your own terms though, which is a problem. And the Palestinians have also moved towards the Israeli position in 16 years.

I hold a different view on both counts.

I think that a large percentage of the Palestinian population does not see the conflict as endable, and expects Israel, to one day disappear. People still think they'll return to homes their grandparents left in 1948. This is a view that Hamas fosters and that Arafat fostered as well, in well documented fashion.

I'm not as knowledgeable in the negotiation issues as I am in other issues, but as far as I see it, in general terms the Palestinians haven't budged from any of their demands
- full 67 borders with no land swaps what so ever
- right of return for Palestinian refugees to Israel proper
- full control of east jerusalem as their capitol and rule of temple mount
- refusal to acknowledge the end of the conflict and the end of demands from Israel

Has that work yet? No, it hasn't. Oh well.....

Well either side has a chance to back down. I don't see where could Israel back down to end conflict with Hamas.

As 'chicken' games go, this one also has some very scary options if neither budges.

Israel, as the occupying power in Gaza (Yes, Israel remains the occupying power in Gaza given its continued claims towards full control over Gaza's territorial waters and airspace, as well as border crossings) is reponsible for the welfare of the population. Clearly this is a responsibility that the current Israeli government is failing utterly to upkeep. Blackmailing 1.5 million people to get back one hostage is not the behavior of a responsible member of the international community.

The legal and recognized entity that was supposed to hold control over waters, airspace and border crossings was uprooted and replaced by Hamas.

The government of Gaza and the main powers there are hostile to Israel, as well as aggressive.

Ever since Israel left Gaza, and even before the siege was enacted in 2006, Hamas constantly and publically declared it would attack Israel until its gone. It continued to fire rockets, attempt to send suicide bombers and kidnap Israeli citizens and soldiers from outside the strip.

Expecting Israel to ignore the existence of an enemy state and treat it with respect reserved to normal neighbors is odd in my opinion.

The gaza population are suffering, and I said myself that I don't think sanctions and siege are the favorable options for political or military achievements.

However, Israel reserves a right to not provide an enemy state, controlled by a hostile government, with the financial means they need to keep in power and supply their vendetta against Israel and the Jews.

[GePap]

I think that a large percentage of the Palestinian population does not see the conflict as endable, and expects Israel, to one day disappear. People still think they'll return to homes their grandparents left in 1948. This is a view that Hamas fosters and that Arafat fostered as well, in well documented fashion.

The disappearence of Israel would be an end to the conflict, would it not?

I'm not as knowledgeable in the negotiation issues as I am in other issues, but as far as I see it, in general terms the Palestinians haven't budged from any of their demands
- full 67 borders with no land swaps what so ever

1. Acceptance of the legitimacy of Israel's pre-67 borders is movement towards the Israeli position by Palestinians.

2. This is actually not the case, as in the last set of negotiations in 2000 there was movement by the PLA to accept a land swap.

- right of return for Palestinian refugees to Israel proper

Again, not the case as of the last negotiations in 2000. The Palestinians wanted some people to return, but were willing to accept reparations fo the vast majority.

- full control of east jerusalem as their capitol and rule of temple mount

Well, given that East Jerusalem is beyond the 1967 borders of Israel, the status of East Jerusalem is up for negotiations. That the Palestinians refuse to accept Israel's claim over the Palestinian portion of Jerusalem is not a hard line position.

The legal and recognized entity that was supposed to hold control over waters, airspace and border crossings was uprooted and replaced by Hamas.

Israel never surrendered this control after the pullout in 2005. For Israel to have granted the PLA control over the airspace and territorial waters of Gaza would have been the same as accepting complete Palestinian independence and soverignty over Gaza - ie, the creation of a Palestinian mini-state. Israel did no such thing.

Expecting Israel to ignore the existence of an enemy state and treat it with respect reserved to normal neighbors is odd in my opinion.

The gaza population are suffering, and I said myself that I don't think sanctions and siege are the favorable options for political or military achievements.

However, Israel reserves a right to not provide an enemy state, controlled by a hostile government, with the financial means they need to keep in power and supply their vendetta against Israel and the Jews.

Gaza is not a state. It is not recognized as a state by anyone, nor does it claim to be an independent state.

[TCO]

Next time, use a buster bunker. One rocket, one buster bunker.

[Elok]

Psst...you mean "bunker buster." I assume.

[MOBIUS]

I doubt you, or anyone in in this forum, includig myself and any other former soldier here, are qualified to distinguish WP wounds from other burn wounds caused by normal bombs.

That, and the fact that a single WP victim does not prove the claim that Israel has employed WP incendiary shells. This could be explained as people who were burnt by a legal, WP smoke shell, as I'm sure is possible.

It would be very sad, but it would not justify the claim that Israel uses WP incendiary weapons.

Your own articles talk about about a dozen people injured by suspected WP wounds. Even if it is WP wounds as opposed to other things, such a low number does not suggest WP incendiary use, but rather use of lawful, and mostly harmless WP smoke, with several unintentional casualties.

Why do you do it, Siro!?

Every time you try to cast doubt or openly lie about lost causes. Anyone would think you were in training to take over from Mark Regev - some of the **** he comes out with would make Comical Ali blush!

First you claimed WP wasn't even being used, then you claimed it was harmless (which would be ROTFLMAO if the injuries it actually DOES cause weren't so horrific!), then you said it wasn't being used as a weapon but only as a smoke screen...

Don't you see how your story keeps changing as posters here peel away each falsehood that spews forth from your fingertips.

You can't pretend that you don't know what WP does, because you have been in the IDF, so I can only conclude that you are 'deliberately trying to mislead us'!

Why, Siro. We always do this dance where you start by denying everything and ultimately you are exposed for it each and every time. So not only are you 'deliberately trying to mislead us' - but you are **** at it for good measure!

I mean, right here is a picture of civilians being attacked by White Phosphorus!!!



Palestinian civilians and medical staff run for cover during an Israeli strike at a UN school in Beit Lahiya. White phosphorus is legal if fired to create a smokescreen on the battlefield

NOTE TO THE MODS: IF YOU DELETE THIS PIC, YOU ARE BASICALLY AGREEING WITH ME THAT THIS IS A PICTURE OF A WAR CRIME IN PROGRESS - AS OPPOSED TO A HARMLESS SMOKESCREEN ATTACK AS CLAIMED BY SIRO. JUST CURIOUS TO SEE WHAT YOUR OPINIONS ARE WRT WP USAGE IN GAZA...

I would REALLY like to see you try and defend this incident!

Names of commanders to be kept secret as Gaza weapons inquiry begins

The Israeli army has started an investigation into the use of white phosphorus shells in densely populated areas of the Gaza Strip during its offensive against Hamas militants.

After initially denying reports – first published in The Times on January 5 – that the weapon had been deployed in the Gaza campaign, the military has now all but admitted its use.

White phosphorus is legal if fired as a battlefield smokescreen but it is banned in civilian areas, where its use could constitute a war crime.

The inquiry came as the army decided not to divulge the names of the battalion commanders who oversaw the battle in the overcrowded slums and cities of Gaza for fear that they could face arrest and prosecution for war crimes if they travelled abroad.

The army appointed an artillery officer, Colonel Shai Alkalai, to investigate a reserve paratroop brigade accused of firing the munitions – which are similar to napalm in their impact on the human body – into crowded civilian areas in Beit Lahiya, northern Gaza.

The United Nations agency responsible for looking after Palestinian refugees has released photographs of what appears to be white phosphorus raining down on a UN school in Beit Lahiya on January 17. The pictures show terrified Palestinians fleeing from burning lumps of the material, which can burn through skin to the bone. Paramedics sprint away from the incandescent core of the explosion as it engulfs a Red Crescent ambulance, before they return with stretchers to evacuate the victims. At least two children were killed and fourteen people suffered severe burns in the attack, according to medical officials.

Ban Ki Moon, the UN Secretary-General, who visited the still smouldering UN facilities on Tuesday, called the strikes totally unacceptable and demanded “accountability through a proper judiciary system”.

While initially issuing an outright denial on the use of white phosphorus, Major-General Amir Eshel, the army’s head of strategic planning, has since said that firing shells as a smoke screen was legal and had been done by Britain and the US. “It is the most nonlethal kind of weapon we used. I don’t see any issue with that,” he said.

Amnesty International, which has investigators in Gaza, said that it had found indisputable evidence that white phosphorus was used by Israeli forces in densely populated areas.

“We saw streets and alleyways littered with evidence of the use of white phosphorus, including still-burn-ing wedges and the remnants of the shells and canisters fired by the Israeli army,” said Christopher Cobb-Smith, a weapons expert and member of the factfinding team in Gaza.

“White phosphorus is highly incendiary air-burst, and its spread effect is such that it should never be used on civilian areas.”

The Israeli army inquiry is focusing on which type of phosphorus shells were used in the attacks on Beit Lahiya. The army said that it used two types of the ordnance, which can be used to detonate booby traps.

The 155mm artillery shell contains little phosphorus, military sources said. The other type is the 81mm or 120mm mortar round that is dense with the element. Around 200 of these were fired in Operation Cast Lead and the inquiry will look into about twenty that were allegedly fired at civilian areas, although the paratroop officers said that they fired only at identified hostile targets.

The 120mm shells have come under scrutiny for their computerized targeting systems which led to a strike on a refugee shelter, in which 42 Palestinians were killed.With evidence of possible war crimes growing, the Israeli army has decided not to divulge the names of battalion and brigade commanders who took part in the battle.

Ehud Barak, the Defence Minister and architect of the offensive, ordered the army to establish an incrimination team of intelligence and legal experts to examine any evidence that could be used against Israeli officials in law suits. That could possibly include Ma-jor-General Yoav Galant, the chief of Israel’s southern command, as well as other senior officers.

One of his predecessors, Major-General Doron Almog, was warned during a visit to London in 2005 not to leave his aircraft at Heathrow after a tip-off that British police were waiting to arrest him for his orders to destroy Palestinian homes in southern Gaza.

There is also growing domestic pressure for an investigation into the military’s conduct in the war, which led to about 1,300 Palestinian deaths, many of them civilians. Eight human rights organisations have appealed to the Attorney-General to set up an independent committee to investigate possible war crimes.

A spokeswoman for one of the groups, B’Tselem, said that an investigation into allegations that some soldiers shot at people waving white flags, refused to treat wounded people and fired into civilian buildings, could help court cases abroad.

How Israel backtracked

January 5, 2009 Israeli military spokesman: “We categorically deny the use of white phosphorus”

January 8, 2009 Major Avital Leibovich, military spokeswoman: “This is what we call a quiet shell: it is empty, it has no explosives and no white phosphorus. There is nothing inside it. We shoot it to mark the target before we launch a real shell. “We launch two or three of the quiet shells which are empty so that the real shells will be accurate. It’s not for killing people”

January 14 Gabi Ashkenazi, the Israel Defence Forces chief of staff: “The IDF acts only in accordance with what is permitted by international law and does not use white phosphorus”

January 21 Major-General Amir Eshel, the army’s head of strategic planning: “It is the most nonlethal kind of weapon we used. I don't see any issue with that”

Source: The Times

The Times, Siro - not some left wing paper, but one owned by the same guy that owns Fox News in the US!!!

Your military lies to a pathological degree! Virtually nothing they seem to say is ultimately true when independently verified - no wonder they banned western journalists from Gaza!

[TCO]

It made sense earlier in the evening

[notyoueither]

So even the OED agrees with me that:



Thanks for taking the time to prove me right, though I do find it funny that you're having a go at me for knowing the true definition of the word!

As I said earlier (and you ignored):

Actually, what you said that got this started:

You used the word 'decimate', if you don't understand what the word means, don't use it - it only makes you look stupid...

And don't cry 'English is my second language' because it is a well known Roman term. In fact, given your service as an officer in the IDF, your ignorance to the meaning of 'decimate' is laughably shocking!

which is a pretty ironic series of statements that do nothing but reveal the ignorance of the one who made them.

Just like was Israel has done to Gaza as a whole...

Technically, it's Latin...

No, it's English.

The Latin would be a little different as I am sure they did not use English spelling.

As for your grading of Siro's choice of words, I don't see you as being any sort of authority on the subject, especially given what we are discussing. I would say it is safe for him to ignore uninformed opinion on the matter.

Ignorance breeds ignorance exponentially...

I fail to see how Siro is ignorant for using a word in a usage that is common in military discussion and is accepted as such by the OED.

However, I do note the continued and increasingly ironic claims by someone who obviously had no idea of the meanings of the word when launching a supposedly smart weapon.

I owe him an apology for educating him!!?

No, you owe him an apology for your behaviour and your attempt to use language as a bludgeon to 'win' when instead it was you who turned out to not underdstand the subject you chose to mock him on.

I have to assume you are blind to the irony of the situation, as you appear to have an appetite to continue. One would have to assume a lack of awareness.

Burned any books lately?

No. Burned any Jews?

[Ming]

Why do you do it, Siro!?


Palestinian civilians and medical staff run for cover during an Israeli strike at a UN school in Beit Lahiya. White phosphorus is legal if fired to create a smokescreen on the battlefield

NOTE TO THE MODS: IF YOU DELETE THIS PIC, YOU ARE BASICALLY AGREEING WITH ME THAT THIS IS A PICTURE OF A WAR CRIME IN PROGRESS - AS OPPOSED TO A HARMLESS SMOKESCREEN ATTACK AS CLAIMED BY SIRO. JUST CURIOUS TO SEE WHAT YOUR OPINIONS ARE WRT WP USAGE IN GAZA...

Stop being an ass... your first picture was a close up shot of an injured and bloody person, which as you know is against the rules. This picture does not show a close up of a bloody body. So cram your attempt to turn the modding here into politics. We aren't going to play your silly game.

And again... stop making personal attacks or you won't be posting much longer. And that goes to everybody else as well. If you can't discuss this topic like adults, go find some place that will put up with your rants and personal attacks... Because we are NOT going to put up with them.

[GePap]

A few articles to try to elevate discussion (not that it will happen, with Mobi, and the "lets make jokes about ethnic cleansing" crowd).

From Haaretz:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1057648.html

Last update - 03:56 22/01/2009


Report: How IDF's legal experts legitimized harming civilians

By Yotam Feldman and Uri Blau

Tags: gaza, israel news, hamas, IDF

The idea to bombard the closing ceremony of the Gaza police course was internally criticized in the Israel Defense Forces months before the attack. A military source involved in the planning of the attack, in which dozens of Hamas policemen were killed, says that while military intelligence officers were sure the operation should be carried out and pressed for its approval, the IDF's international law division and the military advocate general were undecided.

After months of the operational elements pushing for the attack's approval, the international law division, headed by Col. Pnina Sharvit-Baruch, gave the go-ahead. In spite of doubts, and also under pressure, Sharvit-Baruch and her officers also legitimized the attack on Hamas government buildings and the relaxing of the rules of engagement, resulting in numerous Palestinian casualties. In the division it is also believed that the killing of civilians in a house whose residents the IDF has warned might be considered legally justified, although the IDF does not actually target civilians in this way.

Many legal experts, including former international law division head Daniel Reisner, do not accept this position. "I don't think a person on a rooftop can be incriminated just because he is standing there," he said.
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One reason for the international law division's permissive positions is its desire to remain relevant and influential. Sources involved in the work of the Southern Command said that its GOC, Maj. Gen. Yoav Gallant, is quite suspicious of legal experts and has a reputation of not attaching much importance to their advice. The Southern Command's legal adviser was not invited to consultations before the attack, and was compartmentalized when it came to smaller forums. It was actually during the action in Gaza that consideration for his opinions grew.

The legal addendum to Operation Cast Lead's order shows the way the IDF's legal experts legitimized the army's actions: "As much as possible and under the circumstances of the matter, the civilian population in a target area is to be warned," it states, adding "unless so doing endangers the operation or the forces."

The addendum orders commanders to be extremely cautious in the use of "incendiary weapons" (for example, phosphorus bombs), but does not prohibit their use: "Before using these weapons, the the military advocate general or international law division must be consulted on the specific case."

A source who served in the division in the past says it is "more liberal than the attorney general and the High Court petitions department." "The army knows what it wants, and pressure was certainly brought to bear when legal advisers thought that something was unacceptable or problematic," an operational military source said.

According to a senior official in the international law division, "Our goal is not to tie down the army, but to give it the tools to win in a way that is legal."

[GePap]

From the NY times

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/22/world/middleeast/22gaza.html?hp

On Palestinian Question, Tough Choices for Obama
By STEVEN ERLANGER
Published: January 21, 2009

JERUSALEM — With the rule of Hamas in Gaza apparently unchallenged and its popularity growing in the West Bank, the new Obama administration faces an immediate policy choice: support a Palestinian unity government, as Egypt and the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, want, or continue to isolate Hamas and concentrate on building up the West Bank as a political alternative to radical Islam.

The issue is urgent because of the international effort to rebuild a bombed-out Gaza while trying to avoid letting Hamas take credit for the reconstruction, as Hezbollah did in southern Lebanon after the 2006 war. But the choice is more fundamental. It goes to the heart of what President Obama can accomplish in the Israeli-Palestinian peace process when the Palestinian side remains violently divided against itself.

In a series of calls to Middle Eastern leaders on Wednesday, President Obama did not tip his hand, simply calling for a role for the Palestinian Authority in Gaza’s reconstruction.

But many Middle East experts are eager to hear whether the Obama administration will try to create a credible, unified Palestinian government that could negotiate and enforce a state-to-state relationship with Israel, the essence of the so-called two-state solution that has dominated peace negotiations.

“This is a moment of very tough choices, with no dominant approach with obvious advantages,” said Gidi Grinstein, president of the Reut Institute, a policy research group in Tel Aviv. “Obama is being pushed to go for a Palestinian national unity government, negotiations and a comprehensive settlement. But it would be a mistake to push the two-state solution toward a moment of truth when it is in a moment of weakness, and when there is both a civil war and a deep constitutional crisis on the Palestinian side.”

Egypt, Saudi Arabia and even some in Israel favor a national unity government that would enable the Palestinian Authority to be seen as at least notionally in charge of the rebuilding in Gaza. But even if the antipathies between Hamas and Fatah, which controls the West Bank, could be overcome, a deal would almost certainly entail early elections that Fatah might very well lose.

The Gaza war has been bad for Fatah, and its popularity is plunging. Hamas is feeling victorious after surviving the Israeli pounding and is unlikely to allow Fatah to restore its presence, even for an election, in an angry Gaza.

The essential issue, and not for the first time, is whether Israel and the West should engage Hamas as an indisputable fact, in the hope that Israeli military power and political reality will trump Hamas’s religious conviction that Israel must be destroyed, or instead continue to confront and isolate Hamas, in the hope that Fatah can somehow be resurrected or some third force be created around Prime Minister Salam Fayyad, who is seen as a more capable leader.

President Nicolas Sarkozy of France is trying to get ahead of the argument, suggesting that France would deal with Hamas as part of a national unity government that rejects the use of violence. But putting such a government together will not be easy, and Hamas has said its demands will be tougher than before the war. These will include the release of all Hamas political prisoners held in the West Bank and the opening of the crossings into Gaza.

“Hamas feels it has come out unbroken and popular among Palestinians and Arabs,” said Khalil Shikaki, a Palestinian analyst and pollster. “French statements also embolden it. Hamas won’t accept a government led by Fayyad and would want to lead it,” a prospect, he added, that Mr. Abbas “would find hard to accept.” Part of the deal would be early elections in the next six months, he said.

Hamas no longer recognizes the authority of Mr. Abbas, also known as Abu Mazen, whose four-year term as president should have run out on Jan. 9, but which he insists has been extended under emergency procedures. Hamas has never recognized the legitimacy of the unelected Mr. Fayyad.

Mr. Abbas has proposed early elections for his office and the legislature, which Hamas won in free elections in 2006. But he also wants to change the electoral rules to benefit Fatah, making the election a straight vote for parties and removing the constituency voting for individual candidates that so benefited Hamas last time.

Hamas rejects the changes and elections for legislators before their four-year terms expire a year from now. Yet if Hamas did accept early elections as part of a negotiated national government or accord, it could win the presidency, said Zakariya al-Qaq, a political scientist at Al Quds University in Jerusalem, for Mr. Abbas is considered a spent force.

His months of negotiation with Israel and the United States have been fruitless, while he has failed to reform Fatah, which many Palestinians still consider to be collaborationist and corrupt. Many Palestinians also think he was too passive and too late in protesting the Israeli war in Gaza and the civilian deaths because he secretly wanted Hamas eradicated, Mr. Qaq said.

“Abu Mazen looked weak and had nothing to say, and Hamas comes out looking like the leader,” he added. “People think the man is over. It’s not a question now of the legality of Abu Mazen, but his legitimacy as a leader.”

Mark Regev, the Israeli government spokesman, said Israel believed that Hamas had been damaged politically in the war. “We think it’s a very low probability that Hamas will do well in a future Palestinian election,” he said. Many analysts disagree.

Yossi Alpher, the Israeli co-director of www.bitterlemons.org, a Web site that promotes Israeli-Palestinian dialogue online, said that if there were a unity government, there would probably be new elections. “Given Hamas’s political gains and Abu Mazen’s losses, Hamas could win them, and then they’d end up running not just Gaza but the West Bank, too, at least politically,” he said.

Mr. Obama is not the only new leader on the horizon. Israeli elections are scheduled for Feb. 10, and the conservative candidate, Benjamin Netanyahu of Likud, is expected to win. Mr. Netanyahu supported the war and believes that Hamas is an eternal enemy, an ally of Iran, and must be defeated.

Mr. Grinstein, of the policy research group in Tel Aviv, said that in the current confusion, it might be better for Mr. Obama not to reach for “unobtainable objectives,” but instead to explore an older idea: recognition of Palestinian sovereignty while the borders are still being negotiated and Israel unilaterally pulls out of more West Bank settlements.

Ziad Abu Amr, an independent legislator from Gaza close to both Fatah and Hamas, said he hoped that this time the international community would support a Palestinian unity government and open the crossings. Negotiation will be difficult, he said, but Hamas is a reality, and “maybe this is the time to engage Hamas and the other factions, since Hamas showed a lot of pragmatism and accepted this cease-fire.”

With Mr. Obama, he said, “this idea may be revived — it requires some wisdom and flexibility, and the international community should respect the choice of the Palestinian people.” As for Israel, he said, “we’ll just have to see what emerges on the other side.”

[GePap]

From Haaretz, on the coming elections in Israel:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1057752.html

Last update - 01:58 22/01/2009


How did Kadima lose four seats in one week?

By Haaretz Service

Tags: Kadima, Likud, Israel NEws

A Channel 2 election poll revealed on Wednesday that Likud has opened a significant lead over Kadima, which stands at eight seats.

According to the poll, in next month's general election Likud will win 30 seats, as opposed to 22 for Kadima. Labor under Defense Minister Ehud Barak wins 14 seats, as opposed to 16 in last week's poll.

Avigdor Lieberman's far-right party Yisrael Beiteinu has gained unprecedented popularity, and now wins 16 seats. Shas grows stronger too, and wins 11 seats.
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It is yet to be determined to what extent the support for the Arab parties Balad and Ra'am-Ta'al has been influenced by Wednesday's Supreme Court decision to uphold their right to run. So far they win three and two seats respectively.

Another poll showed on Wednesday that Likud chairman Benjamin Netanyahu is favored by the largest proportion of the voters to lead the country in case the violence in Gaza resumes. He wins the support of 34 percent of the people surveyed, as opposed to 17 percent that favor Tzipi Livni.

[GePap]

And finally from the NY Times again, on the White Phosphorus issue.

Outcry Erupts Over Reports That Israel Used Phosphorus Arms on Gazans
By ETHAN BRONNER
Published: January 21, 2009

GAZA — In early January, a week into Israel’s war in Gaza, the home of Sabah Abu Halima was hit by an Israeli shell. Ms. Abu Halima, the matriarch of a farming family in the northern Gaza area of Beit Lahiya, was caught in an inferno that burned her husband and four of their nine children to death.

But as she lay in a bed on the third floor of an annex to Shifa Hospital in Gaza City on Wednesday, bandaged all over and in terrible pain, it was less the magnitude of her loss than the source of the fire that was drawing attention, not only from her doctors but also from human rights organizations and even the Israeli military.

Though there has been no independent confirmation, Palestinian officials say her family was hit by white phosphorus, a weapon that militaries use widely to obscure the battlefield but that is also limited under an international convention that bans targeting civilians with it.

The Israeli military issued a short statement on Wednesday, saying it was investigating whether its use of phosphorous weapons was improper and reiterating that it was “obligated to international law” in the matter. Early in the war, Israeli officials would not confirm whether the military was using white phosphorus at all, but said only that it was using weapons in legal ways.

Meanwhile, Amnesty International said it found “indisputable evidence of widespread use of white phosphorus in densely populated residential areas in Gaza City and in the north.” In a statement, it said its investigators “saw streets and alleyways littered with evidence of the use of white phosphorus, including still-burning wedges and the remnants of the shells and canisters fired by the Israeli Army.” It called such use a likely war crime and demanded a full international investigation.

The use of white phosphorus and other incendiary weapons is covered in one protocol of a 1980 international treaty, the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons, that bans making civilians “the object of attack” by such arms. More broadly, though, international officials have acknowledged that militaries can legitimately use the substance in some cases.

Phosphorus rounds are usually used to spread a thick, white smoke to screen military actions and mark specific areas. Military experts say phosphorus is often particularly useful in urban warfare, in part because it creates tall columns of smoke that can obscure upper-story windows.

But human rights groups harshly criticize its use, saying that the horrible burns and the widespread fires that phosphorus causes make it a menace to civilians. Peter Herby, the head of the Arms Unit for the International Committee of the Red Cross, said in a statement that his agency would not comment publicly on whether it considered Israel’s use of white phosphorus a violation of international humanitarian standards, pending further investigation.

In Gaza, Ms. Abu Halima said that when her family was hit, “fire came from the bodies of my husband and my children.”

“The children were screaming, ‘Fire! Fire!’ and there was smoke everywhere and a horrible, suffocating smell,” she said. “My 14-year-old cried out, ‘I’m going to die. I want to pray.’ I saw my daughter-in-law melt away.”

Dr. Nafez Abu Shaban, head of Shifa’s burn unit, said the family’s burns, which he and an assisting doctor from Egypt had treated, were of a kind he had never encountered, reaching to the muscle and bone.

“They were deeper and wider than anything I had seen; a bad odor came from the wounds and smoke continued to come out of them for many hours,” he said in his office around the corner from Ms. Abu Halima’s sickbed.

He added, “We took out a piece of foreign matter that a colleague identified as white phosphorous.”

Dr. Shaban said that dozens of such cases came to Shifa during the war and that his unit was unprepared to handle them. Many of the burn patients have been sent to Egypt and abroad from there. In a few cases, he said, seemingly limited burns led to the patients’ deaths.

The doctors discovered that the best way to deal with such burns was to get the patients immediately into surgery and clean the areas well. Initial attempts to dress phosphorous burns like normal ones made them worse.

Part of what makes white phosphorus controversial is that it can be difficult to control how wide the effects are. When the shells explode in the air, they disperse pieces of felt soaked in phosphorus — larger version of the shells contain more than 100 of them — that can land on people and cause intense burning, according to Chris Cobb-Smith, a British Army veteran who is here as part of Amnesty International’s investigative team.

The newspaper Haaretz reported Wednesday that one focus of the Israeli military’s inquiry was the use of white phosphorus by a reserve brigade that fired about 20 such shells in Beit Lahiya, where Ms. Abu Halima lives. Col. Shai Alkalai, an artillery officer, is leading the investigation.

Haaretz said about 200 such shells were fired in the fighting, nearly all at orchards where Hamas gunmen and rocket-launching crews were taking cover.

The article added that some of the rounds used were recently acquired 120-millimeter phosphorus shells that have a computerized targeting system attached to a G.P.S. unit. It quoted commanders as saying the shells had been effective but were apparently also responsible for the strike on a United Nations school that killed two and a friendly-fire episode that seriously wounded two Israeli officers.

Donatella Rovera, Amnesty International’s researcher for Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, said in an interview, “We don’t know why they used them, but we do know that it could constitute a war crime.”

She added, “It is not a banned weapon, but it matters how you use it and there is no reason to use it in such densely populated areas. We want a full impartial investigation, not one by the army that used it.”

Ms. Abu Halima said that on Tuesday some relatives went to her home and found it destroyed. They then properly buried the dead.

She wept with fury, saying that as farmers she and her family had good relations with Israelis, selling them produce in past years. But now, she said, she wants to see Israel’s leaders — she named the foreign minister and president — “burn like my children burned.”

“They should feel the pain we felt.”

[Jon Miller]

If Palestinians want peace with Israel they will elect someone who wants peace with Israel.

JM

[Naked Gents Rut]

the "lets make jokes about ethnic cleansing" crowd

Who's joking? TCO and I are the only serious thinkers on this issue.