Latest Middle East Thread

[DinoDoc]

What debate?

[Darius871]

What debate?

[SlowwHand]

Nothing of substance? Defining you, for those who don't know by now, is of substance.
It's certainly of more substance than the tripe you post.


Note: This is directed at the argument, not the poster. I misspoke earlier. I meant to say that the OP was a dickhead of a post.

[Sirotnikov]

No, you most clearly FAILED to defeat Hamas because your most important objective - that of stopping Hamas from striking Southern Israel with rockets was not achieved.

This was not a declared goal of the operation.
They've stopped shooting so far. We'll see how it goes in the next weeks and months.

If you were only hours away from 'completing' what was a 22 day operation, why did you not finish the job if it was so close to your grasp?

I'm sure it was difficult to comprehend with foam at your mouth, even though what I've answered in the post you quoted.

You failed for one main reason. Cowardice in the face of a failed gamble.

Yes, we feared Hamas will begin throwing his dead bodies at us

The Israeli government expected Hamas to back down in the face of overwhelming firepower. I bet they figured Hamas would seek a truce after the first wave of attacks, but they miscalculated gravely.

Hamas did seek a truce after the first wave of attacks. You're welcome to google it yourself. They changed their line to save face after realizing that Israel will not agree, and because of mounting pressure from Iran and the Syrian Hamas leadership. The Gaza leadership was praying for a truce from the first week.

1) If Israel cared even the slightest about international pressure, it wouldn't have started this cluster**** in the first place. Clearly Israel's only chance of success once Hamas refused to buckle was by taking over Gaza street by street, house by house. Hamas called Israel's bluff when they realised it didn't have the stomach for the number of Israeli body bags that that would entail.

We've seen Hamas ability to repel an IDF offensive.

2) One of Israel's other (failed) objectives was the destruction of Hamas - how can you now say keeping Hamas in power in Gaza was preferable to someone else!!??? Seriously Siro, your excuses for Israel's failures are so far fetched as to beggar belief!

You're welcome to continue pressing on your strawmen and red herrings.
Israel did not set out to 'destroy' or deseat Hamas in this operation. This type of action was clearly left as a last resort, and as a weight, to use against the Hamas in case our goals would not have been achieved.

But militarily, they have.

We've destroyed the Hamas military infrastructure. We've destroyed the rocket and weapons factories. We destroyed the Hamas power structures in Gaza. We captured all the points from where shooting originated outside Gaza city, and we destroyed the military infrastructure there.

We killed hundreds of Hamas terrorists, most from the rocket wing, and the rest from the ground forces. Dozens of Hamas military commanders of all levels were killed. 2 the political leadership's more important and influencing figures, when it comes to the military matters, were killed.

We destroyed the entire defense infrastructure Hamas built against IDF. We successfully proved invulnerable to their defensive tactics, and caused mass desertion of posts in Hamas ranks. Not a single tactic they attempted worked.

You annihilated entire blocks of Gaza, then you strolled into those blasted areas of rubble. That is hardly the same as actually taking a city intact from an enemy. Short of razing the entire enclave to the ground and killing virtually its entire population, Israel would have never 'succeeded' using these tactics.

Interesting direction of blame, considering Hamas booby trapped entire neighbourhoods, including schools, playgrounds and mosques.
What ever they booby trapped was not possible to take intact.

http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=8_EztCN3ODk

http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=RI1q3etFX2k

http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=8WZemWhsOeo

Clearly Israel was too afraid to engage Hamas without embarking on a scorched earth policy of 'total war'.

I don't see a reason for Israeli troops to walk into Hamas traps.
Exploding their own booby traps and clearing secure paths is hardly 'total war'.

Israel only destroyed 10% of Hamas' rocket force!!? Your failure grows worse with each of your increasingly inept attempts at justifying your nation's embarrassing failure...

Are you sure this 10% wasn't the hundreds of rockets that Hamas fired during Israel's attempts to stop them?

I have no idea how the 10% red herring came up. I'm waiting to see your source on the 10%.

I only hope it wasn't you that made it up, but someone else...

Clearly they were protecting their families! Would you blame them when Israel thinks it is acceptable to kill 4 women and 12 children just to kill one Hamas leader!!???

Aha, yeah.

You're welcome to go through with the argument regarding Nizaar Ghian's family, because IDF rang them up twice to inform them the house would be attacked.

Btw, IDF called in advance all IAF targets that were also used as a civilian residence.

Frankly I am surprised Hamas resisted the temptation to slit his throat and dump his body in face of Israel's advancing troops.

No need to further demonstrate your enlightened and cultured opinions on rules of war.

Really? So after all this time defending Israel's 'precision' strikes, you now claim your army can't aim for ****? Which is it, Siro, Hamas was firing from all those schools, Mosques, Ambulances, UN buildings, hospitals OR that you are now claiming that they are incompetent!!?

You can't have it both ways!

I hoped a grown man would be able to understand two different arguments about two different situations.

I guess I'll have to be more specific:
IAF strikes are exact and precise, and made with maximum effort at minimizing civilian loss. AIF usually have their targets set out in advance and analyzed a team of intel. specialists and damage assesment specialists.

Tank and artillery fire used to support ground troops is much less exact, due to their physics, because their ammunition can't be navigated after launch, and because they are directed by ground troops, who are in the middle of combat, and have less time and much less intel resources available.

[Ming]

Note: This is directed at the argument, not the poster. I misspoke earlier. I meant to say that the OP was a dickhead of a post.

See that's the idea

Now eveybody else should stop with the personal stuff as well.

[Sirotnikov]

Siro is the Israel equivalent of Iraq's Information Minister during GWII 'Comical Ali' (Comical Avi? ), he needs to be overkilled in the faint hope that he might acknowlegde his nation's abject failure in much the same way Israel hammered the **** out of Gaza...

Considering the nonsense and straw-men you posted, you're much more fit for the job.

Did you enjoy posting "killed" and my name in the same sentence?

[MOBIUS]

Substance?

Israel failed in her objectives (unless killing women and children was an objective), specifically preventing Hamas from firing rockets into Israeli territory.

Enough substance for you?

The lack of substance to which you must be referring to is the deafening silence from your side to this central argument...

Both of your posts on the subject, Sloww, prove you have nothing to say on the subject apart from showing your frustrations at being on the losing side of the argument yet again.

Israel's days at running roughshod over the Palestinians are seriously numbered. Israel has seriously shot itself in the foot on the eve of losing its number one ally in the US. I figure Obama will be altogether a different proposition - if I was him I'd start by threatening to withhold US arms money to Israel unless it stops it continuing settlements expansion in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

Somehow, after the true horrors of these last three weeks become apparent as the Western journalists have finally been allowed in, there'll be a lot less people in the US to lobby against such a common sense move...

[MOBIUS]

Substance?

Israel failed in her objectives (unless killing women and children was an objective), specifically preventing Hamas from firing rockets into Israeli territory.

Enough substance for you?

The lack of substance to which you must be referring to is the deafening silence from your side to this central argument...

Both of your posts on the subject, Sloww, prove you have nothing to say on the subject apart from showing your frustrations at being on the losing side of the argument yet again.

Israel's days at running roughshod over the Palestinians are seriously numbered. Israel has seriously shot itself in the foot on the eve of losing its number one ally in the US. I figure Obama will be altogether a different proposition - if I was him I'd start by threatening to withhold US arms money to Israel unless it stops it continuing settlements expansion in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

Somehow, after the true horrors of these last three weeks become apparent as the Western journalists have finally been allowed in, there'll be a lot less people in the US to lobby against such a common sense move...

[Sirotnikov]

Israel failed in her objectives (unless killing women and children was an objective), specifically preventing Hamas from firing rockets into Israeli territory.

You're welcome to find and quote the Israeli objectives for this operation.

Until you do, I'll mention that as a positive 'side effect' of Hamas fear is that rocket fire has ceased unilaterally, and that the organizations have announced a unilateral week long truce, realizing they have no other chance of saving face and explaining their miserable failure after convincing many Gazans (and apparently, you) of their incredible might.

[MOBIUS]

This was not a declared goal of the operation.
They've stopped shooting so far. We'll see how it goes in the next weeks and months.

Funny, that’s how it was reported here. It was Israel’s principle goal and it failed. But then you claimed that WP was harmless…

So I’ll consider it another one of your bare faced lies.

Yes they have, they declared a ceasefire after your unilateral one. Assuming Israel doesn't recommence its assassination policy, or finds some other way to deliberately provoke Hamas - like not acquiescing to its ceasefire demands...

I'm sure it was difficult to comprehend with foam at your mouth, even though what I've answered in the post you quoted.

Sidestep with an insult...

Try again.

Yes, we feared Hamas will begin throwing his dead bodies at us

Sidestep with an insult (though not at me, this time)...

Try again.

Hamas did seek a truce after the first wave of attacks. You're welcome to google it yourself. They changed their line to save face after realizing that Israel will not agree, and because of mounting pressure from Iran and the Syrian Hamas leadership. The Gaza leadership was praying for a truce from the first week.

Prove it.

We've seen Hamas ability to repel an IDF offensive.

Indeed, Israel is disengaging now - consider the IDF repelled. You never actually engaged anyway. Everything was long range Tank fire and Artillery on the ground. You ran out of easy targets at the beginning (like newly recruited policemen lined up in a courtyard for their passing out parade), and claim success now...

You're welcome to continue pressing on your strawmen and red herrings.
Israel did not set out to 'destroy' or deseat Hamas in this operation. This type of action was clearly left as a last resort, and as a weight, to use against the Hamas in case our goals would not have been achieved.

You're worse than Mark Regev and the lies he spouts!

But militarily, they have.

Hamas' only 'force projection' capability, and therefore only way of hurting Israel is through the launching of rockets - You. Failed. To. Stop. Hamas. From. Launching. Its. Rockets!

Can I make it any clearer? You failed!

We've destroyed the Hamas military infrastructure.

Schools, Mosques, UN Buildings, Ambulances, Hospitals...

We've destroyed the rocket and weapons factories.

That is why they were STILL FIRING ROCKETS INTO ISRAEL!

Lies, Siro...

We captured all the points from where shooting originated outside Gaza city

That is why they were STILL FIRING ROCKETS INTO ISRAEL!

Lies, Siro...

Not a single tactic they attempted worked.

Apart from STILL FIRING ROCKETS INTO ISRAEL! Oh, and winning.

Lies, Siro...

Interesting direction of blame, considering Hamas booby trapped entire neighbourhoods, including schools, playgrounds and mosques.
What ever they booby trapped was not possible to take intact.

http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=8_EztCN3ODk

http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=RI1q3etFX2k

http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=8WZemWhsOeo

So you claim, but without the independent verification this is difficult to prove. Obviously by preventing the world's press from entering Gaza it is easy to make stuff up.

I have no idea how the 10% red herring came up. I'm waiting to see your source on the 10%.

I only hope it wasn't you that made it up, but someone else...

You used the word 'decimate', if you don't understand what the word means, don't use it - it only makes you look stupid...

And don't cry 'English is my second language' because it is a well known Roman term. In fact, given your service as an officer in the IDF, your ignorance to the meaning of 'decimate' is laughably shocking!

Aha, yeah.

You're welcome to go through with the argument regarding Nizaar Ghian's family, because IDF rang them up twice to inform them the house would be attacked.

Btw, IDF called in advance all IAF targets that were also used as a civilian residence.

You don't seriously expect me to believe that the IDF is in the habit of warning (twice) its assassination targets that it is coming to kill them!!!

Siro, you are the world's worst talker of utter bollocks I think this forum has yet seen!

1:16

I guess I'll have to be more specific:
IAF strikes are exact and precise, and made with maximum effort at minimizing civilian loss. AIF usually have their targets set out in advance and analyzed a team of intel. specialists and damage assesment specialists.

Tank and artillery fire used to support ground troops is much less exact, due to their physics, because their ammunition can't be navigated after launch, and because they are directed by ground troops, who are in the middle of combat, and have less time and much less intel resources available.

You can't have it both ways. The IDF spews out propaganda about precision attacks and trying to prevent civilian casualties and then blasts everything in sight with gay abandon with its tanks and artillery - which you've just helped in proving...

Comical, just comical...

Why do you spend so much time trying to defend the indefensible? Are you paid to do it as an IDF 'intelligence' officer?

[TCO]

1. I can't read the head post as I have Mobie on ignore.

2. I actually had a follow on thread, wonder where it went.

3. Every time you get a rocket, drop a block buster in Gaza. Maybe increase the amount as they happen as well. Just do it. The world is behind you.

[notyoueither]

Siro is the Israel equivalent of Iraq's Information Minister during GWII 'Comical Ali' (Comical Avi? ), he needs to be overkilled in the faint hope that he might acknowlegde his nation's abject failure in much the same way Israel hammered the **** out of Gaza...

That's pretty funny. Reading your last post, I was tempted to reply with a pic of the gifted minister.

[notyoueither]

You used the word 'decimate', if you don't understand what the word means, don't use it - it only makes you look stupid...

And don't cry 'English is my second language' because it is a well known Roman term. In fact, given your service as an officer in the IDF, your ignorance to the meaning of 'decimate' is laughably shocking!

I'd say that you have got to be joking, but somehow I doubt it.

I'm left to question British education since English would presumably be your first language.

[Felch]

Yes they have, they declared a ceasefire after your unilateral one. Assuming Israel doesn't recommence its assassination policy, or finds some other way to deliberately provoke Hamas - like not acquiescing to its ceasefire demands...

Why don't people support the assassination policy? Do you expect the Palestinian police forces to extradite terror suspects? What would you have Israel do?

Oh, and losers don't get to make demands.

Sidestep with an insult...

Try again.

Heaven forbid anyone mistake you for a fanatic. Your eye rolling would make a lot more sense if this weren't a perfectly valid point.

Sidestep with an insult (though not at me, this time)...

Try again.

Well, here you made some outrageous claim that Hamas was winning. I suppose winning means something else in a country that's been a English royal heirloom for 700 years. Still, Siro was right. Hamas is getting beaten to a pulp, and Israel is not afraid of them.

Prove it.

That's reasonable. I found one mention of a Hamas request for cease-fire in December, but it predated the campaign.

Indeed, Israel is disengaging now - consider the IDF repelled. You never actually engaged anyway. Everything was long range Tank fire and Artillery on the ground. You ran out of easy targets at the beginning (like newly recruited policemen lined up in a courtyard for their passing out parade), and claim success now...

Shooting someone with a 105 mm or 155 mm gun is still shooting them. Being smart is not a war crime.

Even George W. Bush wouldn't have newly recruited police stand around a parade ground while the IDF is attacking. Sounds like Hamas is stupider than our soon to be former President.

Hamas' only 'force projection' capability, and therefore only way of hurting Israel is through the launching of rockets - You. Failed. To. Stop. Hamas. From. Launching. Its. Rockets!

Can I make it any clearer? You failed!

One of the objectives of Allied air campaigns during World War II was to destroy Axis industry. They flew tens of thousands of sorties and at the end they had not fully destroyed the Axis war industry. However, they did beat the crap out of it.

Total 100% victory is not necessary or even feasible. Damaging severely, making it more costly for the enemy to continue than it is for you to beat them, that is victory.

Schools, Mosques, UN Buildings, Ambulances, Hospitals...

Nobody told Hamas to be there. They're just cowards with no respect for the laws of war.

That is why they were STILL FIRING ROCKETS INTO ISRAEL!

Lies, Siro...

That is why they were STILL FIRING ROCKETS INTO ISRAEL!

Lies, Siro...

Apart from STILL FIRING ROCKETS INTO ISRAEL! Oh, and winning.

Lies, Siro...

You're holding the IDF to an impossible standard and then gloating when they fail to meet it. Did Hamas repel a single Israeli attack? No. That's a pretty clear cut defeat for a defending force. But since you've got your blinders on, you don't see the truth.

So you claim, but without the independent verification this is difficult to prove. Obviously by preventing the world's press from entering Gaza it is easy to make stuff up.

So, first you demand proof. Out come the videos. Now you don't believe your eyes?

You used the word 'decimate', if you don't understand what the word means, don't use it - it only makes you look stupid...

And don't cry 'English is my second language' because it is a well known Roman term. In fact, given your service as an officer in the IDF, your ignorance to the meaning of 'decimate' is laughably shocking!

Pedantic is also Latin. For the record, I hear a lot of native English speakers who are very flexible in their usage of "decimate." Nitpicking Siro's use of it here only comes across as childish and immature.

You don't seriously expect me to believe that the IDF is in the habit of warning (twice) its assassination targets that it is coming to kill them!!!

Siro, you are the world's worst talker of utter bollocks I think this forum has yet seen!

1:16

Prove that it's not true. I've heard what Siro says from multiple sources.

Remember that Israel can claim credit for destroying munitions dumps just as easily as killing people. And it gets a lot of heat in the press whenever civilians die. So it really is in their best interests to give civilians warning, if only to keep their international lifelines open.

You can't have it both ways. The IDF spews out propaganda about precision attacks and trying to prevent civilian casualties and then blasts everything in sight with gay abandon with its tanks and artillery - which you've just helped in proving...

Comical, just comical...

Why do you spend so much time trying to defend the indefensible? Are you paid to do it as an IDF 'intelligence' officer?

This fallacy has already been corrected. Artillery is not as accurate as a guided missile. Expecting it to be is a sign of ignorance.

[notyoueither]

Pedantic is also Latin. For the record, I hear a lot of native English speakers who are very flexible in their usage of "decimate." Nitpicking Siro's use of it here only comes across as childish and immature.

Not to mention wrong. Incorrect. Contrary to accepted usage. Or, as some would say, FAIL.