Latest Middle East Thread

[MOBIUS]

So I see that Israel has lost another war...

Coulda seen that one a mile off...


I didn't think they could suffer a more humiliating or damaging failure than their 2006 defeat against Hezbollah, but it appears they have:


Prevention of Hamas rockets being fired into Israel: FAIL!

Destruction of Hamas as a Political/Military force: FAIL!

Release of Corporal Gilad Shalit: FAIL!


There were plenty of 'successes' on the Israeli side however:


Turning virtually the entire world opinion against themselves: SUCCESS!

Killing twice (at least!) as many women and children (hundreds of each!) than Hamas militants: SUCCESS!

Too many war crimes to mention: UN; WP; Hospitals; Ambulances; Schools; Using Human Shields; Prevention of Medical Attention, etc, etc, etc... SUCCESS!


And last but not least, because of the utter, utter irony of it all:


Killing and wounding more Israelis through friendly fire than were killed/wounded by Hamas: SUCCESS!




So, what has Israel learned with this latest defeat?

Time to dismantle the West Bank, East Jerusalem settlements and Wall and return to the '67 borders?


This is a continuation of Eli's Another Round Begins in The Middle East Thread. As Snoopy says, keep it clean y'all - we'd hate to see this thread closed for unruly behaviour...

[Darius871]

Welcome back MOBIUS

[DaShi]

Asher left voluntarily this time.

[Elok]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory

The only question is who "won."

[DinoDoc]

To MODS: What's the difference between this one and the one TCO made?

[Darius871]

I can't even find TCO's anymore, but I know I saw it...

[DinoDoc]

They deleted it.

[SlowwHand]

Welcome back MOBIUS

Who has the toilet with the plumbing running down to ACS? Whenever they flush their crap, here it comes.

[Sirotnikov]

I think that Israel has a complex balance sheet.

We most clearly defeated Hamas, and will likely face an opponent much less prone to wild adventures for the next year or two. Notice how they try to save face by proclaiming Israel has a week to withdraw on its own "or else". They chose a week because they assume Israel will be out in a week anyway.

We could have easily achieved absolute and photographic victory. We were hours away from entering Gaza, arresting the Hamas leaders and trying / deporting them. We avoided that for two main reasons:
1) international pressure to stop the incursion
2) the complexity of who will be in charge of the strip after Hamas is gone, which no one is willing to handle, and we don't want the honor either.

We are sitting close on the Gaza suburbs, and we have so far annihilated any resistance Hamas has tried to put up. Overwhelming fire power, good intelligence and a good combat engineering force meant that we disamred all of the traps, and there were hundreds of them.

We were fully able to stroll inside Gaza and take what we want, and Hamas was clearly demonstrated to be much weaker than it claimed.

The Hamas rocket force is decimated.
The Hamas military wing has fled into hiding, failing each and everyone of their promises.

The political response Hamas will surely face from the civilian population for dragging them into a conflict is yet to come in the following weeks.


on the other hand, we didn't manage (yet) to bring about the freedom of Gilad Shalit.
And we have proven poor aiming ability with regards to artillery fire, as well as improper consideration for UN areas, which should be kept to a higher standard, and caused unnecessary risk to already suffering refugees.

[Naked Gents Rut]

I know you have to pretend to feel bad about hitting the UN, but still...

[Sirotnikov]

Also I'll remind you that Hezbullah is sitting scared.
In 2006 Hezbullah got involved after we made a much smaller incursion into Gaza.

This time Hezbullah feared to risk getting kicked by Israel, and sat quietly. 2 times a palestinian organization fired on Israel, and Hezbullah was quite in a hurry to declare that it wasn't them and that they would never do that...

[Sirotnikov]

I know you have to pretend to feel bad about hitting the UN, but still...

I don't know if I like all the UN staff working there. I'm sure there are plenty of people like Mobius if not worse employed.

But I do sincerely dislike hitting such targets.

We are already bombing civilian houses (with advance phone and leaflet warning, mind you) but we have to leave some areas where people can stay to save their lives.

IDF says troops were fired from adjustant buildings and called in artillery and tank fire on the sources of fire. I don't know whether it was an error in recognizing the source of fire, or an error in the weapon trajectory, or maybe even neither and fire was shot from that same building. It was still an error of judgement. We shouldn't fire tank or artillery ammunition at UN areas.

It is clear that this was not something approved by higher echelons since those would have UN areas marked on intel maps, that a tank or an artillery crew might no have.

[Guardian]

Hmmm... well, if this is a continuation of Eli's thread, then here I go:

Well, white phosphor does ignite if exposed to sunlight. Just to clear that one up.

Actually, it ignites when exposed to oxygen.
ANY oxygen.
There is oxygen in water.
There is oxygen in skin.
There is oxygen blood.
There is oxygen all over.

[TCO]

The first rocket that goes off, just go right back in.

[Sirotnikov]

we already had around 6 rockets today.

we're giving them some time to blow off steam, and we have to cater the international community.

we now have 6 heads of state in Jerusalem, and they can witness for themselves that Hamas does not respect the cease fire.

If hamas won't chill, he'll get chilled even more. we're in perfect position to take Gaza, street by street.