Latest Middle East Thread

[MOBIUS]

dp

[MOBIUS]

Stop being an ass... your first picture was a close up shot of an injured and bloody person, which as you know is against the rules. This picture does not show a close up of a bloody body. So cram your attempt to turn the modding here into politics. We aren't going to play your silly game.

In which case I applaud your decision to allow me to keep this picture of Israel in the process of perpetrating a war crime.

And again... stop making personal attacks or you won't be posting much longer. And that goes to everybody else as well. If you can't discuss this topic like adults, go find some place that will put up with your rants and personal attacks... Because we are NOT going to put up with them.

Me? What, calling someone out as a liar? What about NYE's comment literally just above your post about whether I've burnt any Jews lately!!?

Apart from the atrocious "Genocide against the Palestinians is fun" brigade, whom you've also ignored, that easily has to be the most offensive comment here. Oh but wait, it has a next to it, so that must be OK.

Just cos I can take it, doesn't mean you should tolerate these gross indecencies with your usual double standards 'moderation'...

[Felch]

Also Siro, if civilians have been killed by WP - that constitutes improper use! In fact, it's a war crime...

Actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea.

Being an esteemed Latin scholar, you should have no trouble understanding that. For the benefit of Siro, it basically means that guilt has to do with not only the action, but also the intent.

For example, at My Lai, American soldiers intended to massacre Vietnamese civilians. That makes it a war crime. Incidental killings as a result of the fog of war are not war crimes.

In fact, you're wrong again.

[Ming]

IMe? What, calling someone out as a liar? What about NYE's comment literally just above your post about whether I've burnt any Jews lately!!? ... Just cos I can take it, doesn't mean you should tolerate these gross indecencies with your usual double standards 'moderation'...

If you had really bothered to read my warning, you will see that it not only applied to you: "And that goes to everybody else as well."
So your comments about double standards is pure BS.

AGAIN... ONE LAST TIME SO EVEN THE DUMBEST PERSON MIGHT UNDERSTAND IT...
ENOUGH WITH THE PERSONAL ATTACKS AND INSULTS. DISCUSS THE TOPIC AND NOT THE POSTERS, AND DO IT IN A CIVIL FASHION OR YOU WILL BE CHILLED

And if you have a problem with the modding here, even though your earlier comment was so wrong, take it up via PM like the rules state. Because if you keep up your silly "the mods are taking sides crap BS" you will be chilled as well. So follow the rules or find some other place that enjoys that kind of crap.

[MOBIUS]

Actus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea.

Being an esteemed Latin scholar, you should have no trouble understanding that. For the benefit of Siro, it basically means that guilt has to do with not only the action, but also the intent.

For example, at My Lai, American soldiers intended to massacre Vietnamese civilians. That makes it a war crime. Incidental killings as a result of the fog of war are not war crimes.

In fact, you're wrong again.

It was an intentional attack on the UN school, therefore not an accident.

The WP was used to attack, not as a smokescreen, therefore illegal under the Geneva Convention. So, a war crime.

Civilians were killed in this attack, therefore a deadly war crime!


Also this isn't an isolated incident, but one of many. There is nothing incidental about these attacks, no 'fog' of war as the Israelis were 100% in control. Indeed these appear to be a systematic series of WP attacks on multiple UN buildings and hospitals that have apparently resulted in dozens of civilian deaths. How much more blatant a war crime could you get!?

[Jon Miller]

Why can't Israel charge Hamas for war crimes due to the rocket attacks and suicide bombings?

JM

[MOBIUS]

They do. Sort of. They're called targeted assassinations. The one on Nov 4th started this whole mess!

So it's OK to commit war crimes, if you have suffered them?

I'm remember not to piss you off, JM!

[Sirotnikov]

Why can't Israel charge Hamas for war crimes due to the rocket attacks and suicide bombings?

JM

nobody cares when terrorists do it.

[Jon Miller]

So we could say 'hold it!' and not allow any more hostilities for a bit.

Then charge hamas with a war crime for every rocket attack or suicide bombing/etc, and charge Israel for this WP issue and any others. Have a court decide the cases, bringing up the people responsible in all situations.

Then see if people can make peace? (after the war crimes people are removed from the situation)

JM

[Sirotnikov]

Well, just on WP alone you refused to admit Israel was even using them, then it was OK to use them because it was just to create smoke - THEN you claimed that WP is virtually harmless!!!

So, yeah, I realise what you really said: Lies.

I constantly said that there is no evidence Israel was using WP rounds for anything other than smoke screens.

The evidence posted in Che's and Kid's articles was clearly evidence of WP smoke rounds, and there was in those articles intentional obfusaction about the difference between WP smoke rounds and WP incendiary rounds.

I then quoted an expert site on WP smoke ammunition, that explains that in most cases WP smoke ammunition is indeed harmless - both the smoke, and the burning particles, unless they fall directly onto someone's lap. The use of smoke WP ammunition is perfectly legal.

The first concrete evidence for use of improper WP rounds came much later, and I have openly stated that due to the incoming evidence, both according to Israeli newspapers, and according to inside info I got at the time, IDF
opened an inquiry into a possibility that proper guidelines weren't followed.

IIRC you said when you started your military service you were an officer in IDF Intelligence. That's all I've said really apart from the fact that I may have dubbed you 'Comical Avi' (the Israeli version of Comical Ali, the Iraqi Information Minister) for your increasingly fantastic attempts at denying the undeniable, and defending the indefensible. I did opine that indeed such was your performance, that perhaps you were grooming yourself to take over from Mark Regev, who seems to be the person Israel has chosen as a conduit for the Jewish State's lies to the UK media...

You constantly attribute to me a conspirative position of knowing "the truth" about everything going on in the IDF. I appreciate you think highly of my IDF status, but yet it continues to reek of accusing me personally of conspiracy.

Ming said to avoid the personal attacks and I thought that calling you a bare-faced pathological liar, might be deemed as a personal attack by him. So I couched it in more palatable terms. Anyway, you did ask, so I figure it is only fair to tell you now.

So putting it in quotes is not a personal attack?
Niiiice.

Er no, you basically justified it (so basically saying it was OK) by saying Hamas was using it as a firing position. And it is not just 'the' UN School - it is UN Schools, hospitals, the UN HQ, ambulances, even the Hamas ostriches in Gaza Zoo we massacred! http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5570052.ece

OOOOOOHHH I'm so glad you mentioned the zoo:


Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera quoted residents who accused Hamas of using ambulances, and intentionally setting up firing positions next to hospitals and UN facilities.

Yeah, I clearly photoshopped the Times' picture and sent it in to them to use.

I never claimed you photo-shopped the picture.
The picture could be from the first spark that is not indicative of the nature of the ammunition used, whether it was indeed incendiary or smoke producing.

Ha! My name is Siro and I'm pretending to be thick.

Sorry, doesn't wash. Whatever I may think you are, you are far too clever for me to actually believe you really mean that you don't know what the WP situation is in your army. Christ, it only took me about 10 minutes to research it...

You're welcome to continue your quest at red herrings. You insist to continue your quest of attributing to me a conspirative knowledge of everything that goes on behind the scenes.

So far you claimed that my IDF service means that I have
- absolute knowledge of how various WP ammo (smoke and incendiary) works and looks like.
- absolute knowledge of what is the state of WP ammo spread and use in the IDF
- absolute knowledge of what places were attacked by anyone in the IDF
- absolute knowledge of who was at those places at the time

either you really do believe in conspiracies, or you have no idea how large organizations operates, especially armies in time of war.

At least, I hope, you attribute it to my IDF service and not other reasons.

You are notoriously selective as to which sources of news you're prepared to accept, as you constantly denounce the Guardian, Independent and even the BBC as being biased against Israel. The Times, being a right-wing paper has no such bias and its stories are just as damning!

You continue to pursuit a red herring, since at no time did I deny the existence of an IDF inquiry into the nature of WP use in Gaza, following the accusations. Infact I was the first person to post about it.

So, what do you think the appropriate punishment for the war crime of firing WP shells into a known civilian target resulting in the gruesome and barbaric deaths of women and children?

Depending on the circumstances of the mistake.

How about 60 to 70 patients had died in his unit during the war from severe burns that were unlike any injury he had previously seen

That's just the ones burned alive by the phosphorus, dozens more must have been injured!

70 dead people is a large number, but its still more likely all or most of those victims are due to the very large amount of (legal) WP smoke rounds IDF used.

Legal ammunition causes deaths as well, and, if it lands directly on people, a legal WP smoke screen rounds could also burn people. They are still fair game, according to the current Geneva convention.

The slow burning rate of the WP particles described in all the stories, only goes further to prove that these are legal smoke producing rounds, which are intentionally made to burn longer for the smoke effect.

Rounds that are intentionally incendiary, burn quickly, while smoke rounds, intentionally do not.


Given that Gaza is incredibly densely populated, I would expect that munition grade WP rounds, which are very deadly, would be consistent with hundreds and thousands of dying from burns. Obviously I'm glad that this is not the case.

There's no choice but see what the investigation turns up.

Also Siro, if civilians have been killed by WP - that constitutes improper use! In fact, it's a war crime...

This is utterly unsupported by international law.
from WIKI:

The Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons, not the Chemical Weapons Convention, goes on, in its Protocol III, to prohibit the use of all air-delivered incendiary weapons against civilian populations, or for indiscriminate incendiary attacks against military forces co-located with civilians.[44] However, that protocol also specifically excludes weapons whose incendiary effects are secondary, such as smoke grenades. This has often been read as excluding white phosphorus munitions from this protocol, as well. Several countries, including the United States and Israel, are not signatories to Protocol III.[45]

from Wired:

WP causes terrible injuries, burning right through skin and flesh. It is not classed as a chemical weapon, and as Jason Sigger points out, WP smoke rounds are not classed as an incendiary weapon either. This is because the 1980 Geneva Protocol on Incendiary Weapons specifically does not cover "Munitions which may have incidental incendiary effects, such as illuminants, tracers, smoke or signaling systems."

The weapons involved are likely to be U.S.-supplied M825A1 155mm artillery rounds, each of which scatters a hundred and sixteen wafers of WP-infused felt over a wide area. Using felt rather than pure WP ensures slower burning over several minutes rather than just a cloud of instant smoke that rapidly disappears. The M825A1 scatters its payload over an area between 150 and 250 meters in diameter.

As for Hamas using human shields, so apparently did Israel. It has done so in the past after all...

Care to bring examples?

I mean, surely, if you had at least one example, as you gladly usually do.

I noticed this in your article though: "which was aimed at halting rocket fire on southern Israel and destroying Hamas' infrastructure"

I thought you said that wasn't the aim of the Israeli attack?

The 'halting rocket fire' bit is Haaretz' take.
The Israeli cabinet has not said it expects this operation to halt rocket fire, nor was it stated, AFAIK, as a mission target in the IDF mission statement.

Yes, I ignored your articles on casualties - they are notoriously difficult to put together during battle,

The truth will come out, as it already is, it could be less Gazan casualties - it could be more...

It's not the number of casualties that is important, but the nature of the fighting that is discussed - the percentage of Hamas members vs. innocent civilians, the witnesses describing Hamas use of ambulances and taking cover near UN facilities,

What were Israel's aims again in this war it started by breaking the original ceasefire on November 4th, Siro?

Israel was not the one to break the cease fire. Hamas did this quite spectacularly.


Here's what the Egyptian government, that mediates between Israel and Hamas had to say:

Instead, government officials from Mubarak to Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit have blamed Hamas for abandoning the cease-fire with Israel and seeming to seek Israeli retaliation. On Thursday, for example, Aboul Gheit said that Egypt had warned Hamas of Israel's intentions, but Hamas "served Israel the opportunity on a golden platter to hit Gaza."

[...]
"Egypt is working for peace while trying to work realistically with the situation in Gaza, where a radical group took over the territories next to Sinai, a sensitive subject for Egypt," Said continued. "So Egypt is trying to support Palestinian humanitarian needs, but not allow a radical group to control the situation, dominate the Palestinian issue or affect Egyptian internal politics."

Here's what the Saudis had to say:

Saudi Arabia yesterday blamed Hamas for Israel's continuing offensive in the Gaza Strip and urged it to resolve bitter differences with the western-backed Palestinian Authority - even as divisions deepened with a new charge of treachery.

[...]

Saudi Arabia did not name Hamas, but it was clear who was being blamed for having provoked Israel's attacks by failing to renew a shaky six-month ceasefire when it expired on 19 December.

"This terrible massacre would not have happened if the Palestinian people were united behind one leadership," Saudi foreign minister, Prince Saud al-Faisal told the Palestinians.

Here's a quote from an article by Abdul Rahman Al-Rashed,
the general manager of Al -Arabiya television, and a former editor-in-chief of Asharq Al- Awsat.

[...]
The truth is that Hamas does not want to take responsibility for the crisis, as it has found that attacking Egypt is the best defence policy in the context of the ongoing battle that has lasted for months at the hands of the Syrian and Iranian allies against Egypt.

Therefore, we must blame Hamas because its goals are clear. It seeks a battle with Israel, and doesn’t care about the results even if it means Israel annihilates Gaza, and this is what its prime minister, Ismail Haniyeh said. Hamas wants a fight to put pressure on Arab countries to take action in its favour. It wants to appoint itself as a political power in spite of the Palestinian Authority based on the pretext of confronting the enemy and it doesn’t care how many Palestinians are killed in the process.

With the exception of the Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit, everybody is standing behind Hamas that has starved 1.5 million Palestinians for months and has led them to destruction today. Stupidly, Hamas is launching rockets towards Israel and Israel is responding with bloody attacks so everybody is forced to remain silent about what Hamas has done so as not to be accused of siding with Israel.

Regarding the Israeli raid on Nov. 4th, it came as the Palestinians were preparing for a second kidnapping of an Israeli soldier.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5089940.ece

A five-month truce between Israel and the Islamist rulers of the Gaza Strip was foundering yesterday after Israeli special forces entered the besieged territory and fought Hamas militants, leaving six Palestinian fighters dead and four Israeli soldiers wounded.

The Israeli military described the operation as a “pinpoint” raid to destroy a 250-metre tunnel that it said the hardline Palestinian movement was digging under the border to try to kidnap an Israeli soldier – as it did in the summer of 2006.

Hamas responded by firing more than 30 of its unguided Qassam rockets into southern Israel, causing no damage or injuries but reviving fears of the cross-border war of attrition that left scores of people dead – most of them Palestinians – before an Egyptian-mediated truce came into force in June.

Yesterday’s fighting began when Israeli troops entered the central region of the Gaza Strip, which has been sealed off from the outside world since Hamas seized control 18 months ago. The unit attacked a house that was believed to be the starting point of the tunnel.

[...]

Israeli forces responded by firing at the rocket launchers, with an airstrike killing five more Hamas members as they tried to launch mortars into Israel.

Since all you do is blame me of being an IDF spokesperoson lackey, I'll go ahead and quote the IDF spokesperson:

Last night (4 November), IDF and security forces uncovered a tunnel meant for the immediate abduction of IDF soldiers a distance of 250 meters from the security fence of the Gaza Strip. The operation was carried out by an IDF force close to the security fence inside the Gaza Strip, in order to thwart the intended terror attack. The force completed its mission and returned to Israel this morning.

The force successfully located a structure, under which a tunnel, designed to enable the immediate abduction of IDF soldiers, had been dug. During the operation, armed terrorists inside the structure opened fire at the IDF forces. The forces returned fire and identified positively hitting a number of them. [...]

The building of the tunnel, located adjacent to the security fence, and intended for the abduction of Israeli soldiers, is a blatant violation of the calm.

The uncovering of the tunnel was facilitated by the joint efforts of the IDF Intelligence Branch, the Southern Command and the ISA.

Apart from killing women and children with WP, the attack didn't really work did it?

We'll see how soon they try to kidnap more soldiers or fire rockets on Israeli cities.

http://aawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=2&id=15428

[Sirotnikov]

So we could say 'hold it!' and not allow any more hostilities for a bit.

Then charge hamas with a war crime for every rocket attack or suicide bombing/etc, and charge Israel for this WP issue and any others. Have a court decide the cases, bringing up the people responsible in all situations.

Then see if people can make peace? (after the war crimes people are removed from the situation)

JM

Had someone besides Israel taken up on Hamas after every rocket attack and suicide bombing, and had someone really made an effort to stop those, Israeli military operations would have never occurred.

[Sirotnikov]

freedom of speech in sweden

Pro-Israel rally crashed in Sweden

Protestors gathered to support Israel were pelted with eggs and bottles, then dispersed by police

Adva Naftali
Published: 01.25.09, 17:10 / Israel News

A pro-Israel rally in Malmo, Sweden was torn apart Sunday by pro-Palestinian residents who arrived on the scene with eggs, bottles, and tear gas grenades which they threw at Israel's supporters. Police dispersed the entire crowd.


Hundreds of people took part in the rally in support of Israel, which was held at the city's main square. Elad Meier, a Bnei Akiva and Jewish Agency envoy to Sweden said it was organized by Malmo's Jewish community and Sweden's Democratic Party.


Protestors carried signs that said 'Stop eight years of Qassams' and 'Peace for children in Israel and Gaza'. The organizers received a police permit for the demonstration.


However, a number of pro-Palestinian protestors who did not have a permit to demonstrate took to the streets in retaliation to the approved rally. They were not dispersed by police despite lacking a permit.


"At some point, about a half an hour after the protest began, pro-Palestinian protestors began to throw eggs, bottles, and even a tear gas grenade," Meier recounted.


He added that the lawless protestors disconnected the speakers brought to the square by the Jewish community while its leader was speaking. The act brought the pro-Israel rally to an end, as others could not speak.


At this point, Meier said, police stepped in and asked the unruly protestors to leave. Officers then proceeded to clear the square of all present, including those who had received permission to demonstrate.


The Jewish community in Malmo was angered by the police's conduct, and its president has lodged an official complaint stating that only those who had protested without a permit should have been dispersed.

[Elok]

They should lock those protesters in their houses, then throw molotov cocktails through their bedroom windows. That would be the most proportionate response.

[MOBIUS]

I constantly said that there is no evidence Israel was using WP rounds for anything other than smoke screens.

The evidence posted in Che's and Kid's articles was clearly evidence of WP smoke rounds, and there was in those articles intentional obfusaction about the difference between WP smoke rounds and WP incendiary rounds.

I then quoted an expert site on WP smoke ammunition, that explains that in most cases WP smoke ammunition is indeed harmless - both the smoke, and the burning particles, unless they fall directly onto someone's lap. The use of smoke WP ammunition is perfectly legal.

Indeed, we were telling you they were 'falling directly onto the laps' of civilians, killing and terribly injuring them in a flaming inferno of death and you totally refused to believe us, instead you tried to say they were virtually harmless...

The first concrete evidence for use of improper WP rounds came much later, and I have openly stated that due to the incoming evidence, both according to Israeli newspapers, and according to inside info I got at the time, IDF opened an inquiry into a possibility that proper guidelines weren't followed.

The first concrete evidence was when we said it was happening. Israeli lied about even using WP in the first place! I guess in the face of overwhelming evidence it finally had to admit it!

Your army LIED, Siro!

You constantly attribute to me a conspirative position of knowing "the truth" about everything going on in the IDF. I appreciate you think highly of my IDF status, but yet it continues to reek of accusing me personally of conspiracy.

However you haven't actually denied it either. Did you or did you not start your IDF service as an officer in Army Intelligence? Are you still in the army? But yes, I supposed I did overestimate your capabilities as you have claimed yourself.

So putting it in quotes is not a personal attack?
Niiiice.

You are deliberately misleading us! Hardly a personal attack, but definitely a fact if only from the lies you have been trying to spread about WP. Either that, or you are in fact far more stupid that I realised. Personally I prefer the former, because you would have to be incredibly dense to actually believe the bull**** you are spouting about WP first and foremost (and everything else). So I am actually leaping to your defence by saying you are NOT that stupid...

OOOOOOHHH I'm so glad you mentioned the zoo:

Sorry but when the IDF has already been busted for outright lying, and the fact that there was no independent press on the ground to verify this, I actually have trouble believing this...

If it is supposed to be a booby trap, it has to be the most obvious booby trap ever with great big ****ing wires everywhere! How easy would that have been to set up by the IDF, 30 mins? Less?

Israel banned independent witnesses. All that says to me is that it had something to hide, or wanted the time to orchestrate its own propaganda...

Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera quoted residents who accused Hamas of using ambulances, and intentionally setting up firing positions next to hospitals and UN facilities.

So, one Hamas guy with an AK shooting from next to a school means it's OK to take out the school and kill dozens of civilians? At the start you said Israeli attacks were accurate and now they're missing the Hamas guy and taking out the school next to him!

Also, Israel has been proven to lie about this: UN reopens schools in Gaza Strip

In one of the deadliest incidents, about 40 Palestinian civilians were killed while sheltering at the al-Fakhura school in the Jabaliya refugee camp in northern Gaza.

Initially, Israel accused Hamas of firing from the school and using civilians as "human shields", but later changed its defence, blaming a stray Israeli mortar instead.

This was the attack Israel provided video 'evidence' of Hamas of firing from the school - until the UN proved the IDF was lying with its own evidence!

Your army attacked 30 SCHOOLS!!! not one or two - but 30!

I never claimed you photo-shopped the picture.

Well, you didn't seem to believe that the fiery inferno created by a WP attack could be so big.

The picture could be from the first spark that is not indicative of the nature of the ammunition used, whether it was indeed incendiary or smoke producing.

What is this bollocks about incendiary or smoke!? You keep bringing it up for some reason...

We are talking about the improper use of WP smoke rounds as a terror weapon to primarily to attack instead of creating smoke. One is legal as such, the other is very much illegal! If it is used to create smoke it is detonated in a airburst high above the area you want to send your troops through - jeez, I can't believe I am educating an Israeli on the correct use of the weapons his army uses!

Most importantly, where were the IDF soldiers that this smoke was supposed to benefit!?

You're welcome to continue your quest at red herrings. You insist to continue your quest of attributing to me a conspirative knowledge of everything that goes on behind the scenes.

So far you claimed that my IDF service means that I have
- absolute knowledge of how various WP ammo (smoke and incendiary) works and looks like.
- absolute knowledge of what is the state of WP ammo spread and use in the IDF
- absolute knowledge of what places were attacked by anyone in the IDF
- absolute knowledge of who was at those places at the time

either you really do believe in conspiracies, or you have no idea how large organizations operates, especially armies in time of war.

At least, I hope, you attribute it to my IDF service and not other reasons.

So now you are pretending to be thick again, careful I think I am starting to believe you!

Depending on the circumstances of the mistake.

I ask again, because you did not answer:

"So, what do you think the appropriate punishment for the war crime of firing WP shells into a known civilian target resulting in the gruesome and barbaric deaths of women and children?"

70 dead people is a large number, but its still more likely all or most of those victims are due to the very large amount of (legal) WP smoke rounds IDF used.

WP smoke rounds are legal if used properly – the fact that 70+ people have DIED means that [b]they were not used properly and therefore USED ILLEGALLY!!!

How can you not accept this TOTALLY OBVIOUS CONCLUSION!!???

These are the “virtually harmless” smoke rounds, to use your words…

Legal ammunition causes deaths as well, and, if it lands directly on people, a legal WP smoke screen rounds could also burn people. They are still fair game, according to the current Geneva convention.

Aha, killing Palestinian civilians is “fair game” according to Siro…

This is utterly unsupported by international law.
from WIKI:

from Wired:

Well, the UN, Amnesty Intl., HRW etc seem to believe otherwise to your cut and paste comments that have no links. I know who I believe more.

Care to bring examples?

I mean, surely, if you had at least one example, as you gladly usually do.

There are anecdotal reports mentioned to Western journalists by Palestinian civilians – one of the reasons Israel refused access to Gaza…

The 'halting rocket fire' bit is Haaretz' take.
The Israeli cabinet has not said it expects this operation to halt rocket fire, nor was it stated, AFAIK, as a mission target in the IDF mission statement.

Funny, EVERYONE in the world seems to think it was one of Israel’s express reasons for launching the war. What were the reasons Siro, because you never answered my question? No reason? To kill women and children? To kill 65,000 Chickens? Enlighten me.

It's not the number of casualties that is important, but the nature of the fighting that is discussed - the percentage of Hamas members vs. innocent civilians, the witnesses describing Hamas use of ambulances and taking cover near UN facilities,

Yes it is. Your army has indiscriminately killed hundreds of women and children – at least 50% of those killed. Israel’s claims of Hamas next to UN facilities etc have been shown to be lies when independently checked. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...-attack-deaths

The Israeli military said an initial inquiry had shown that several mortar shells were fired at Israeli forces from within the school. It released a video on YouTube of a mortar being fired from a UN school to support its case – but the footage dated back to October 2007.
However, the UN insisted the Israeli account was wrong. "I am very confident now that there was no militant activity. If anybody has evidence to the contrary, then let's bring it forward," said John Ging, director of Gaza operations for UNRWA.

Israel caught lying!? Surely not!

Israel was not the one to break the cease fire. Hamas did this quite spectacularly.

Israel broke the ceasefire on November 4th – even CNN thinks so! http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Kntmpo...eature=related

Here's what the Egyptian government, that mediates between Israel and Hamas had to say:

Here's what the Saudis had to say:

Here's a quote from an article by Abdul Rahman Al-Rashed,
the general manager of Al -Arabiya television, and a former editor-in-chief of Asharq Al- Awsat.

More cut and paste crap without links or dates – this **** could have been written a couple of years ago. Hey, just like the Israeli ‘evidence’ that Hamas was firing from that UN school where 40 people died, 2007 wasn’t it?

Regarding the Israeli raid on Nov. 4th, it came as the Palestinians were preparing for a second kidnapping of an Israeli soldier.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5089940.ece

Since all you do is blame me of being an IDF spokesperoson lackey, I'll go ahead and quote the IDF spokesperson:

Ooh wow, sounds really bad when you put it like that…

But, just a couple of things…

From your Times quote: “The unit attacked a house that was believed to be the starting point of the tunnel.”

“BELIEVED”

So, firstly we have only the word of the IDF – which we have already proved in this thread has constantly LIED. So a bit difficult to believe really. Was there any independent proof? Can you prove this now? No?

You cannot just kill people on a suspicion. Did they actually kidnap anyone? No, so all this is hearsay…

If Israel knew the location of this tunnel, why didn’t they destroy it from their end and expose Hamas as the evil kidnapping monsters you claim them to be? Catch them redhanded?

No, instead as far as I am concerned they launched a pre-emptive strike, THUS BREAKING THE CEASEFIRE and killed some Hamas people who hadn’t actually done anything yet – if they were even going to in the first place…

SO ISRAEL STARTED IT – ISREAL PULLED THE TRIGGER THAT PROVOKED HAMAS TO LAUNCH ITS ROCKETS!!!

We'll see how soon they try to kidnap more soldiers or fire rockets on Israeli cities.
http://aawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=2&id=15428

Well, pretty soon I guess if Israel doesn’t agree to Hamas’ main demand of opening the borders. Though I suspect the IDF will spot some high ranking Hamas individual and assassinate him. And it will be Israel’s fault…

[SlowwHand]

I see the septic tank overflowed again.