Latest Middle East Thread

[MOBIUS]

Since you're wasting your time here, this is clearly false.

Indeed, I agree that replying to you is completely pointless - consider this post, out of courtesy, the last time I do. Your viewpoints are either completely amoral, or so outrageous as to be crude attempts at trolling because no right thinking person could possibly hold the poisonous beliefs that you appear to uphold.

Either way, I have made my point and no matter how much you try and twist these facts there is nothing you can do to obscure the truths that Israel is an out of control state that has just finished a three week spree of wanton, indescriminate, war crimes and atrocities against a defenceless and brutalised population.

[MOBIUS]

There are enough pictures of Gaza devastation you can post, without resorting to deformed and scorched bodies.

Likewise with pictures of Hamas. You could show pictures of their offices of government, schools, medical centres...

Oh wait, they've all been destroyed!

Do you really think that showing gore has a place in an argument?

Why not, does it make you feel guilty about the disproportionate suffering your government has meted out to innocent women and children through the illegal use of WP as a weapon?

Do you really think that I lack gore pictures, that are result of Hamas attacks to post in response?

Yes, actually I do. 3 Israeli civilians dead to >700 (at least) Palestinian civilians.

I can send you a number of links to pictures of utterly destroyed Israeli houses, or bleeding and deformed Israeli children. Except for provoking disgust it serves no purpose, so I don't do that.

Maybe if both sides were forced to look at those pictures - it might just make them think twice? No, probably not, as you obviously don't give a ****...

The only time I posted a destroyed house was in response to someone's descriptions of Hamas rockets as a mere nuissance.

They are only a nuisance. Vastly more people in Israel die every year from road accidents than Hamas rockets over the same time frame. In fact, during this very conflict more Israelis were killed and wounded by friendly fire than were killed by Hamas rockets!

Of course, there would be no rockets fired if Israel upheld its side of the original ceasefire and stopped assassinating people, or stopped a pointless blockade of the entire population of Gaza...

[Felch]

Indeed, I agree that replying to you is completely pointless - consider this post, out of courtesy, the last time I do. Your viewpoints are either completely amoral, or so outrageous as to be crude attempts at trolling because no right thinking person could possibly hold the poisonous beliefs that you appear to uphold.

Either way, I have made my point and no matter how much you try and twist these facts there is nothing you can do to obscure the truths that Israel is an out of control state that has just finished a three week spree of wanton, indescriminate, war crimes and atrocities against a defenceless and brutalised population.

Let's review the finer points of your rhetoric.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!lol:!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, you made your point.

[Felch]

Of course, there would be no rockets fired if Israel upheld its side of the original ceasefire and stopped assassinating people, or stopped a pointless blockade of the entire population of Gaza...

You're wrong about a lot of things, MOBIUS. In fact, just about everything you say is wrong, from accusing Israel of using WP as a weapon, to your bashing on Siro for his use of decimate. This though, is the single wrongest thing you've ever said.

Hamas seeks the destruction of Israel. If Israel weren't attacking Hamas, Hamas would still be attacking Israel. You don't have to believe me about this though, just educate yourself. The destruction of Israel is called for in the Hamas charter.

Here's a translation

[MOBIUS]

Let's review the finer points of your rhetoric.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!lol:!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, you made your point.

And with your reply, I just made it again.

(I reserve the right to reply to you when it takes 2 seconds...)

[MOBIUS]

You're wrong about a lot of things, MOBIUS. In fact, just about everything you say is wrong, from accusing Israel of using WP as a weapon, to your bashing on Siro for his use of decimate. This though, is the single wrongest thing you've ever said.

Hamas seeks the destruction of Israel. If Israel weren't attacking Hamas, Hamas would still be attacking Israel. You don't have to believe me about this though, just educate yourself. The destruction of Israel is called for in the Hamas charter.

Here's a translation

Point to where I say "Hamas doesn't seek the destruction of Israel"

You can't.

Keep making stuff up...

[MOBIUS]

Fight with the OED over it.

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/decimate?view=uk

USAGE The earliest sense of decimate was ‘kill one in every ten of’, a reference to the ancient Roman practice of killing one in every ten of a group of soldiers as a collective punishment. This has been more or less totally superseded by the sense ‘kill or destroy a large proportion of’, although some traditionalists argue that this later sense is incorrect.

Congratulations. You are a conservative.

So even the OED agrees with me that:

My use of the word is the correct usage. The whole etymology of the word 'decimate' is literally 'to take a tenth'. If the morons of the world want to mangle its usage through wholesale ignorance, then I suppose at least you expose yourselves as such...

Thanks for taking the time to prove me right, though I do find it funny that you're having a go at me for knowing the true definition of the word!

As I said earlier (and you ignored):

There are tons of far more appropriate words to describe what Siro was trying to get across (wrongly, because it is likely that they have only destroyed about 10% of Hamas' rocket stockpiles!): Annihilate, exterminate, destroy, or devastate.

Just like was Israel has done to Gaza as a whole...

Meanwhile, you are also a first class ass for criticising a ferrigners English when they were clearly correct in their usage.

Technically, it's Latin...

I might point out that 'decimation' meaning near destruction of a force is a common military usage. Hmmm, I wonder where Siro would have picked it up?

Ignorance breeds ignorance exponentially...

At any rate, your ignorance of English is not his problem, and I believe you owe him an apology.

I owe him an apology for educating him!!?

Burned any books lately?

[rah]

Point to where I say "Hamas doesn't seek the destruction of Israel"

You can't.

Keep making stuff up...

Ok, for those that are keeping score....

So you agree that HAMAS seeks the destruction of Israel?

If so, do you concur with Hamas's desires here?

I just want to verify where you stand on this.

For the record. I agree that Hamas seeks the destruction of Israel.
And as long as that's their goal, they should reap what they sow.
When your goal is genocide, it's hard to take the high moral road.
We can argue on who started what and who is justly getting even for what, but in the end it is my belief that One side is willing to live in peace and the other is not. In my book, that makes all the difference in the world. One side tries to avoid civilian casualties, and the other side thrives on it. Not a hard choice on that one either. Neither side is always in the right or always in the wrong, but I can still tell the difference among the shades of gray.

[Kidlicious]

There are enough pictures of Gaza devastation you can post, without resorting to deformed and scorched bodies.

I wouldn't show the pictures except that they are evidence that white phosphorus has been used on civilians. White phosphorus wounds in specific ways.

[Sprayber]

Why do people respond to MOBIUS? There isn't anything new to his thoughts on Israel or the situation in the ME. There isn't any insight that can be gained from his opinions and there is no room for compromise. It doesn't matter if what he says is what he believes or just a troll. It only ends in insults and delusions of superiority. Move on.

We all have a bias in the way we look at the conflict and it shows more so in some than in others. I have leaned towards Israel in the past but I don't see what they accomplished this go around. A lot of people were killed and I'm not sure exactly if it was worth it. Hopefully something positive will come from it but I'm not seeing it so far.

[dannubis]

Ok, for those that are keeping score....

So you agree that HAMAS seeks the destruction of Israel?

If so, do you concur with Hamas's desires here?

I just want to verify where you stand on this.

For the record. I agree that Hamas seeks the destruction of Israel.
And as long as that's their goal, they should reap what they sow.
When your goal is genocide, it's hard to take the high moral road.
We can argue on who started what and who is justly getting even for what, but in the end it is my belief that One side is willing to live in peace and the other is not. In my book, that makes all the difference in the world. One side tries to avoid civilian casualties, and the other side thrives on it. Not a hard choice on that one either. Neither side is always in the right or always in the wrong, but I can still tell the difference among the shades of gray.

Still, what to think about the 1 to 4 "success ratio" of Israel ? Not a hard decision there either.

Same message only packaged differently.

[rah]

Not sure what you're refering to on the 1 to 4, please clarify and I'll be happy to respond.

[Felch]

Point to where I say "Hamas doesn't seek the destruction of Israel"

Originally Posted by MOBIUS
Of course, there would be no rockets fired if Israel upheld its side of the original ceasefire and stopped assassinating people, or stopped a pointless blockade of the entire population of Gaza...

You can't.

Keep making stuff up...

To be fair, you didn't use those exact words. On the other hand, I never said that you had used those exact words. This seems to be a consistent pattern with you. You hold others to an unrealistically high standard, and then claim victory when they don't meet your fantastic expectations.

Regardless of that, you seem to believe that Hamas genuinely wants peace, when their raison d'etre is undeniably the destruction of Israel.

How do you reconcile those two contradictory positions?

[Sirotnikov]

I wouldn't show the pictures except that they are evidence that white phosphorus has been used on civilians. White phosphorus wounds in specific ways.

I doubt you, or anyone in in this forum, includig myself and any other former soldier here, are qualified to distinguish WP wounds from other burn wounds caused by normal bombs.

That, and the fact that a single WP victim does not prove the claim that Israel has employed WP incendiary shells. This could be explained as people who were burnt by a legal, WP smoke shell, as I'm sure is possible.

It would be very sad, but it would not justify the claim that Israel uses WP incendiary weapons.

Your own articles talk about about a dozen people injured by suspected WP wounds. Even if it is WP wounds as opposed to other things, such a low number does not suggest WP incendiary use, but rather use of lawful, and mostly harmless WP smoke, with several unintentional casualties.

[Sirotnikov]

if you are born as a Palestinian, what do you have to live for?

I dunno.

Their lives are being derailed by a group of of fundamentalist thugs, who provoke Israel into ever growing responses.

Instead of trying to remove the fundamentalist thugs, making the situation better for both peoples, the international community usually focuses on trying to curtail the Israeli response, to a "tolerable" one.

Israel is fed up of tolerable. It is fed up of "tolerable" attacks on Israeli cities. It is fed up of "tolerable" Israeli counter-attacks. Israelis want the conflict to stop, and Israel's PMs have been willing to go a long way towards Palestinian positions, that haven't really moved in 16 years of dialogue.

But Israelis are getting fed up, and our responses will be "intolerable" in hope the other side stops shooting.

Today Livni said that the Israeli blockade policy can easily be reverted if Hamas releases Corp. Gilad Shalit, whom Hamas kidnapped from Israeli soil, on July 2006.