Another Round Begins in The Middle East

[SlowwHand]

Originally posted by Winston
Israel

Now and always.

[Eli]

Originally posted by Unimatrix11
So, yeah, just got the news: 350 dead.

Where did you get this number? The latest I heard is ~200, with some more buried in the rubble.

HAMAS-reaction: Guess, what ? They call for retaliation. It´s a great day for Israel, truely... The situation is much saver now. Bright, peaceful future ahead...

You're talking as if the goal of an attack should be to scare the enemy enough to make them stop fighting. That doesn't work against a fanatic, patriotic and suicidal enemy. The goal is to kill them, taking minimum damage in return.

[Unimatrix11]

So they say, too.

The number 350, i got from the radio. I dont know what else to say: I dont remember who they refered it to, neither does it help, if i name the station, since it´s a regional northern german one. It was also mentioned, that it was the biggest strike in the strip for the last 4 decades.

350 (or whatever number) dead - 350 will replace them. Nothing was solved. Those who lost their beloved ones today, will do just what they did. If this goes on like this, it wont stop until one side has no survivors. Someone, somewhen, will have to refrain from retaliation and ask: ´Why did you do this ? Why ARE WE (both sides) doing this ? Is this what we want ? Is there really no way to stop this ?´ When this happens, ´victory´, or closest to it, that can be achieved, begins to slowly rise on the horizon. Until that day comes, the pointless dying will continue.

[David Floyd]

Looks like some people here are saying that Israel should just let the rockets hit and write it off as the cost of doing business.

Jesus Christ that's stupid.

[Unimatrix11]

Jesus Christ would have actually done just that, Floyd.

EDIT: A rocket in this case is a sure sign someone is discontent, to say the least, with his situation. Changing the situation, instead of killing that someone, offers the only way to a permanent solution.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Unimatrix11
Wouldnt it be smarter for israel, to try and buy the leaders ?

They did that. That's how they got Hamas.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Unimatrix11
EDIT: A rocket in this case is a sure sign someone is discontent, to say the least, with his situation.

The situation in this case is the existance of Israel. I don't think you'll find many Israelis willing to change that though.

[David Floyd]

Jesus Christ would have actually done just that, Floyd.

EDIT: A rocket in this case is a sure sign someone is discontent, to say the least, with his situation. Changing the situation, instead of killing that someone, offers the only way to a permanent solution.

So, Hamas should get a free pass because you think Jesus would have given them one? They get to kill whoever they want with impunity, just because they're upset?

Oh, and the reason they are upset is that they are radical Muslims. The only way to please those people is to do exactly what they want, and let them do to you exactly what they want.

[GePap]

Israel isn;t going to end Palestinian resistance militarily. It has been trying for 40 years and still hasn't done it. It can buy itself relative calm and low casualties for itself (those rockets from Gaza have killed a small number of civilians), but that is all it can get.

As for Gaza, either the Israelis take it back, and assume full responsibility for the civilian population's well being, or actually talk to Hamas and make a deal. This middle ground of trying to starve 1.5 million Palestinians so they turn on Hamas has failed, and was bound to fail.

[Unimatrix11]

I know, that the radicals on both sides want the other totally gone, with no exception. But they wouldnt get anywhere with this, if they got utterly isolated by their own people.

There´s still germans, who´d like to try a third time. They are utterly isolated tho and except maybe spraying a concentration camp memorial or jewish cementary, they dont get to do much about it. (Toughest recently was the wounding of a police chief this month, which caused an outrage throughout the republic).

But as long as those who carry out the fight are considered as heros, who keep their side save (and they dont) on both sides, goals along the line of utter destruction of the other side are sociable. It must be made clear and obvious to anyone on either side, that he (or she) who kills one of the other side is also responsible for the apparently ineveitable retaliation and thus harming his (her) side, not protecting it.

The only way violence could end this, is when it´s used not only with the goal but also with the effect of utter destruction of the other side. And i fear that this day may come, and be not too far, if this go on like this. The Israelis cant do this, though - they know all too well, what the word ´genocide´ means. The most radical palestinensians may or may not have such compunctions tho.

EDIT: Where have brave men like Rabin gone? You know, what it would show, if israeli civilians would block their own airfields, when rumors spread out that a strike is imminent? That would give goose-bumps worldwide. Maybe it would make one or the other palstinian mum say to her kid: ´If you go launch rockets on them, i am gonna be so ashamed - you wouldnt be my son anymore.´ If some local isreali government decided to give most of the water to the few israelis and thus deprive many palis of that vital good. If then those benefitting israelis would make a ´water march´ each day with buckets in their hands to the pali-camp, until the unfairness ends. How about that ? Thats brave ! That protects ! That may lead to peace. Naive - i know.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by GePap
or actually talk to Hamas and make a deal.

Once Hamas shows some willingness to actually abide by a deal they might be more willing to. As it is now Hamas doesn't even keep to its cease fires.

[David Floyd]

Actually, the Israelis don't want the Palestinians "totally gone". Oh, they might PREFER that, but very few Israelis - and certainly not the government - are going to advocate killing all the Palestinians.

No, what the Israelis want is for the VIOLENCE to be gone. Unfortunately, when someone is dropping rockets on civilians, you don't have ANY choice but to respond with violence.

To recap, the Israeli's want the violence gone, and are willing to confront violence with violence. The Palestinians want the Israelis gone, and are willing to murder civilians to try and make that happen, even though they know it won't work.

And there's even a question about which side is in the right?

[Sirotnikov]

just so you get a perspective on who is the bad guy:
last week, Hamas rocket launches wounded several palestinian teenage girls who were later taken to treatment in Israeli hospitals.

this is a poker game

Hamas thought Israel wouldn't dare go on an operation with general elections coming in February, so they calculated they can up the violence level and get more concessions from Israel for a new truce agreement.

But they did it very violently and upped the pressure too much, leaving Israeli government no choise but to remind the Hamas of the power ratio between their organization, and IDF.

Egyptian leadership, notable not very pro-Israeli, has clearly stated that Hamas ignored their warnings and that basically they got what they had going.

Meanwhile, a brilliant tactical trick and the fact the operation was kept secret, lead to the fact that Hamas leaders were unprepared and almost all Hamas buildings hit were active and manned.

The palestinian reports shown in Israel talk of 200 casualties.

[GePap]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Once Hamas shows some willingness to actually abide by a deal they might be more willing to. As it is now Hamas doesn't even keep to its cease fires.

Neither side lived up to their supposed agreement.

Hamas didn't stop Islamic Jihad and smaller groups from firing rockets, but its forces most certainly kept the cease fire. Israel failed to keep its promise to restore the same level of goods going into Gaza as before. Each side used the other's actions as their excuse.

[Unimatrix11]

Originally posted by David Floyd
...
No, what the Israelis want is for the VIOLENCE to be gone. Unfortunately, when someone is dropping rockets on civilians, you don't have ANY choice but to respond with violence.

To recap, the Israeli's want the violence gone, and are willing to confront violence with violence. The Palestinians want the Israelis gone, and are willing to murder civilians to try and make that happen, even though they know it won't work.

And there's even a question about which side is in the right?

Well, the israelis successfully bombed the british out, so they gave the example. But that doesnt matter anymore today (this is not meant sarcastic - it really doesnt matter anymore).

I disagree with the statement though, that the only response to violence is violence. It would have been totally cool, if they struck on some new device this time. Sent the planes up. Those loud, threatening fighter-bombers. And then drop: Candy. That´s how the americans did it here. Candy-bombers. I mean they dropped millions of kilos of bombs on german cities during the war, killing millions, but after they candy-bombed Berlin during the blockade, at least the kids loved them (so they say - i wasnt born back then). If you make my kids happy, i sure dont hate you. If you make my kids starve, well, i might wanna set up a rocket launcher. If you kill my parents, i certainly will.

EDIT: Sirotnikov: I wont get into any discussion of who is the bad guy. If Isreal didnt kill teenage girls today, it was by blind luck. Let´s suppose they are all good guys and dont harm people for fun or for sadistic reasons. They do it, because they fight for the same things: Safety and wellbeing for them and their families. After all there´s only humans on each side.