Massive Terract campaign in India

[Asher]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

*sigh*

Sadly you fail to understand that non-ethnic countries are
a) a new concept

My understanding of this should be clear by my constant slamming of Israel for being outdated.

b) only possible where previous indigenous populations were destroyed

They are not destroyed. I work with several. They have a surprising degree of autonomy and a lot of their land. Take your own advice and look up the history of the aboriginal population of Canada (note: they _were_ mistreated, but they were FAR from destroyed).

b) and where colonial countries accepted lots of immigrants who willingly forefeited their previous national identity (like your family did when it immigrated).

This usually happens when you move to a new country. Note that Canada does permit dual citizenships, as I have..

This concept is practically irrelevant to Europe or the Middle EAst, or Asia. A multi-ethnic, multi-cultural concept couldn't possibly work for a long term.

Just because you can't live cooperatively with other ethnicity doesn't mean others are as closed-minded. My best friends growing up were Muslim and Jewish. It's amazing what happens when humanity grows the **** up.

And this has absolutely nothing to do with what started the discussion:

You have successfully moved away from this failed argument.

That's because you seriously tried to assert Judaism had no role at all in the formation of Israel, which we all know to be false. Even your links, which I disagreed with, said it played a role (even though it said small).

Israel, Judaism, and Zionism are all intricately linked concepts and I've not backed away from this, I'll keep talking about it and I haven't changed my mind, but you won't agree because you like to pretend your country is secular. You're emotionally invested in your country, won't hear anything to the contrary.

Your argument doesn't even make logical sense, it's internally inconsistent. You agree that Judaism, Zionism, and Israel are linked, then you make the claim that Zionism had "entirely nothing to do" with Judaism. How can they be linked but have nothing to do with eachother? Judaism formed the culture and ethnicity surrounding the "Jewish" ethnic group, so even if you want to pretend your country exists for the ethnic group (and NOT the religion) specifically, they are part and parcel.

[TCO]

Asher:

To start with, let's make them all only speak on language: English.

Breed everyone to same shade of brown.

Catholicism for everyone . Mandatory chapel.

-----------------------------------------------------

Any resistance and we just eliminate the other people's and take their land.

-----------------------------------------------------

Would that be a better world?

[TCO]

Of interest for Siro and Asher, I have heard it said that areligious Jews often tend to come back to their faith as they age. So I think the faith is tied in, at a minimum culturally. Of course it's really ALL tied in: language, faith, writings, ritual, food, ethnicity, etc.

[Asher]

Originally posted by TCO
Asher:

To start with, let's make them all only speak on language: English.

Breed everyone to same shade of brown.

Catholicism for everyone . Mandatory chapel.

-----------------------------------------------------

Any resistance and we just eliminate the other people's and take their land.

-----------------------------------------------------

Would that be a better world?

No, what does this have to do with anything?

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Asher
That's because you seriously tried to assert Judaism had no role at all in the formation of Israel, which we all know to be false. Even your links, which I disagreed with, said it played a role (even though it said small).

Israel, Judaism, and Zionism are all intricately linked concepts and I've not backed away from this, I'll keep talking about it and I haven't changed my mind, but you won't agree because you like to pretend your country is secular. You're emotionally invested in your country, won't hear anything to the contrary.

Your argument doesn't even make logical sense, it's internally inconsistent. You agree that Judaism, Zionism, and Israel are linked, then you make the claim that Zionism had "entirely nothing to do" with Judaism. How can they be linked but have nothing to do with eachother? Judaism formed the culture and ethnicity surrounding the "Jewish" ethnic group, so even if you want to pretend your country exists for the ethnic group (and NOT the religion) specifically, they are part and parcel.

*sigh*

read:

Of course they are linked. Like Zevico said - everything is somehow linked.

England's official church used to be the Anglican church -> That is a type of Christianity -> Christianity was born out of Judiasm.

Great, now we've proved that England is linked to Judaism. That does not mean Judaism is the reason behind England's existance.


But you have made a very specific claim on the nature of link between Judaism and Israel.
You said that Judaism caused Zionism and caused Israel to exist. I've successfully disproved that.

Now you're trying to play with semantics.

There was a time where I had a higher opinion of your arguing abilities

[TCO]

Originally posted by Asher


No, what does this have to do with anything?

Come on man...in some ways it would rock.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov


*sigh*

read:

Posting your **** twice doesn't make it smell any less.

- Zionism is linked to Judaism, which you concede is true.
- You said Zionism has "entirely nothing to do" with Judaism, which contradicts your statement that Zionism is linked to Judaism.

Judaism is fundamental to the formation of the culture and ethnic group that spawned the Zionist movement. It is absolutely PART AND PARCEL with it, even if the founder of it considered himself secular, it comes with the baggage of the religion. Just like you pretend you're secular, when you continue to live in what is essentially a Jewish state and when you marry, I guarantee you'll have the wedding officiated by a Rabbi. You're not fooling anyone.

[Sirotnikov]

Posting your **** twice doesn't make it smell any less.

- Zionism is linked to Judaism, which you concede is true.
- You said Zionism has "entirely nothing to do" with Judaism, which contradicts your statement that Zionism is linked to Judaism.

We're not talking about just any link.
You were specifically driving the point that it is religion and faith in God that is responsible for violence.
In that context you were trying to prove that Israel was formed due to religious motives which is simply not true.

You lost, no matter how you try to evade it.

Your following text is meaningless.
It has been edited to show that it applies to any country as the majority of citizens in any country are tied to religion in either history or rituals:

Christianity is fundamental to the formation of the culture and ethnic group that spawned the United States. It is absolutely PART AND PARCEL with it, even if the founder of it considered himself secular, it comes with the baggage of the religion. Just like you pretend you're secular, when you continue to live in what is essentially a Christian state and when people in USA marry, I guarantee most will have the wedding officiated by a priest. You're not fooling anyone.

[TCO]

Asher, sometimes when you just try to keep arguing a point with not interesting points or by dipping into sophistry, it's not fun. I think half the fun of discussion is to peel the onion and find ways of analyzing issues. Not just juvenile trying to defend an initial statement.

[Asher]

I completely agree with your edited post, the US is essentially a theocracy right now.

I love it when you prove my points for me.

[Asher]

Originally posted by TCO
Asher, sometimes when you just try to keep arguing a point with not interesting points or by dipping into sophistry, it's not fun. I think half the fun of discussion is to peel the onion and find ways of analyzing issues. Not just juvenile trying to defend an initial statement.

The initial statement was right. Siro tried to play the semantics game that Zionism is an "ethnic nationalist" movement with no bearing on religion, but when religion is so pervasive in the culture as it is in Israel, it's a de facto part of it.

There's two ways to look at it: Siro's way (which makes him feel better since he pretends to be secular as he gets married by a Rabbi), and the correct way.

It's not sophistry, it's not juvenile, it's common sense.

[TCO]

Originally posted by Asher
I completely agree with your edited post, the US is essentially a theocracy right now.

You're a ****ing moron. We have the First Amendment. No established Church.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Asher
The initial statement was right. Siro tried to play the semantics game that Zionism is an "ethnic nationalist" movement with no bearing on religion, but when religion is so pervasive in the culture as it is in Israel, it's a de facto part of it.

There's two ways to look at it: Siro's way (which makes him feel better since he pretends to be secular as he gets
married by a Rabbi), and the correct way.

You confuse actual religion with traditional religious rites that are cultural folklore. The origin of a tradition has little to do with a person's motivation for it.

Plenty of secular people participate in different traditions due to various reasons such as appeasing parents, national culture, plain old fun.

Setting up an nation state has also, nothing to do with belief in god. It has to do with history, and with the value people place in their tradition.

but let's go back to the original issue:

Our original discussion was whether Islam is currently more prone to violence than other religions.

I explained why Islam is currently more prone to violence than other religions.

You countered that Judaism (the religion) is currently responsible for bloodshed and violence. I explained that the religion itself has nothing to do with it, and that the people who you say hold responsible for bloodshed and violence, were mostly secular and even a-religious

It's not sophistry, it's not juvenile, it's common sense.

It's not common sense.
It's ignorance history and ignorance of other cultures than yours.

[TCO]

If you want to be a socialist, why don't you go back to Russia?

[Barnabas]

So, the terrorist were only killing americans, uk people and jews, right?