Ontario gets just a little more big brother

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
One bar near where I live has made a big point of throwing out all their cheater pint glasses and selling true 16 oz pint beers (slopping over the sides and all).

They actually did a story on this on NPR and interviewed some like fair pint league guy from Portland.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Traianvs


Many people do drink and drive. As a matter of fact, one fella drove home (about 30km) today after about 8 beers. We all tried to stop him from doing it, but to no avail.

I'm all for zero tolerance. From experience I realise that driving while drinking the slightest bit makes me more (over)confident etc. And letting teenagers drive when they're 16 is insane imo. But okay roads in North-America are bigger, and everyone has auomatic transmission, but still. I'd never allow my 16 year old son/daughter drive in the narrow Belgian roads.

People drive when they are 14, all the time.

Outside cities there are actual areas where work gets done and young people are not treated like morons til they are 25. They are actually expected to pitch in and help get the work done.

It's called a farm. They have them in Ontario too, I've heard. Don't know about them Belgians.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Traianvs
I'm all for zero tolerance. From experience I realise that driving while drinking the slightest bit makes me more (over)confident etc. And letting teenagers drive when they're 16 is insane imo. But okay roads in North-America are bigger, and everyone has auomatic transmission, but still. I'd never allow my 16 year old son/daughter drive in the narrow Belgian roads.

And riding the bus for two extra years teaches them the many necessary skills they need to be better drivers?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
They actually did a story on this on NPR and interviewed some like fair pint league guy from Portland.

Yup, and I live just up the road from the bar they talked about.

[Traianvs]

Originally posted by OzzyKP


And riding the bus for two extra years teaches them the many necessary skills they need to be better drivers?

You're making it sound stupid, but driving in Brussels (our capital) isn't an easy matter I'm telling ya. I've been driving a while now, but for some reason people there are more aggressive, unforgiving, and impatient. It's not the driving skills itself, but the overall conduct when engaging in traffic that's problematic for me.

I said elsewhere in America it could be different because there's no traffic, few cars etc, but that doesn't teach em the necessary skills to drive in a crowded city, which is what I peronally need to do in Belgium all the time when I take the car. That's why I always take the train / bus / bike when I can.

I wouldn't trust a 14 year old with an expensive car by the way. Then again I know America is a country in which independance and cleverness are considered as valuable traits so I understand why. Objectively though, letting kids drive a car in a crowded area is irresponsible.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Traianvs


You're making it sound stupid, but driving in Brussels (our capital) isn't an easy matter I'm telling ya.

Try driving in Montreal or NYC.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Traianvs


You're making it sound stupid, but driving in Brussels (our capital) isn't an easy matter I'm telling ya. I've been driving a while now, but for some reason people there are more aggressive, unforgiving, and impatient. It's not the driving skills itself, but the overall conduct when engaging in traffic that's problematic for me.

I said elsewhere in America it could be different because there's no traffic, few cars etc, but that doesn't teach em the necessary skills to drive in a crowded city, which is what I peronally need to do in Belgium all the time when I take the car. That's why I always take the train / bus / bike when I can.

I wouldn't trust a 14 year old with an expensive car by the way. Then again I know America is a country in which independance and cleverness are considered as valuable traits so I understand why. Objectively though, letting kids drive a car in a crowded area is irresponsible.

If you are not suited to drive in a chaotic environment, like down town, big city rush hour that is your call. Don't do it. I know several older adults who are uncomfortable with city driving. They avoid it.

I know others who are uncomfortable driving highways at night. Again, they judge themselves and don't drive under conditions they are uncomfortable with.

That means less than zero about the ability of a 14 year old to operate a motor vehicle. They are large enough, by and large. They have the motor skills to do it. If they haven't been told repeatedly that they are retards who can't be trusted with anything of consequence, they most likely have the confidence.

Your being an adult who is incompetent in an area of basic life skills has less than zero bearing on the abilities of others who may be much younger than you.

[Traianvs]

Originally posted by notyoueither


If you are not suited to drive in a chaotic environment, like down town, big city rush hour that is your call. Don't do it. I know several older adults who are uncomfortable with city driving. They avoid it.

I know others who are uncomfortable driving highways at night. Again, they judge themselves and don't drive under conditions they are uncomfortable with.

That means less than zero about the ability of a 14 year old to operate a motor vehicle. They are large enough, by and large. They have the motor skills to do it. If they haven't been told repeatedly that they are retards who can't be trusted with anything of consequence, they most likely have the confidence.

Your being an adult who is incompetent in an area of basic life skills has less than zero bearing on the abilities of others who may be much younger than you.

Hmm okay then. Why then do young people have to pay a lot more for car insurance than middle aged people? Again I'm referring to the situation in my country, but the younger the driver, the more expensive your car insurance will be. And you know why that insurance is more expensive huh: young people are more irresponsible, and more often involved in accidents. It's simple really.

[notyoueither]

It's the same here. Only thing is, city and rural driving are taken into account. As are other things, like driving for work or only being an occassional driver.

That's the good thing about insurance. They can take some individual factors into account. Families can do likewise.

No need for overly restrictive laws for young drivers.

[Elok]

Originally posted by Asher

Province.

Back in my province I got my learners permit at 14 and full on license at 16.

But we are MEN in Alberta compared to the BOYS in Ontario.

Ontario is the province who, until very recently, needed an extra grade ("grade 13") in an effort to make their populace less stupid. It failed.

"First they came for the idjits in Ontario, but I did not speak up, because I was from Alberta. Then they came for the dirty frogs from Quebec, but I did not speak up because I thought the sleazy Frenchmen deserved it. Then they came for Nunavut, and I did not speak up because Native Americans are used to that kind of treatment. Then they came for me...and there was nobody left to speak up."

--Fr. Billy Beaverbasher

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by notyoueither


If you are not suited to drive in a chaotic environment, like down town, big city rush hour that is your call. Don't do it. I know several older adults who are uncomfortable with city driving. They avoid it.

I know others who are uncomfortable driving highways at night. Again, they judge themselves and don't drive under conditions they are uncomfortable with.

That means less than zero about the ability of a 14 year old to operate a motor vehicle. They are large enough, by and large. They have the motor skills to do it. If they haven't been told repeatedly that they are retards who can't be trusted with anything of consequence, they most likely have the confidence.

Your being an adult who is incompetent in an area of basic life skills has less than zero bearing on the abilities of others who may be much younger than you.

Here is the crux of the problem. Your 14 yo may have the motor skills, size and confidence to drive. But they don't have the ability of the other drivers you mentioned, WRT driving or not driving in situations they are uncomfortable. They simply don't know.

However, how are they expected to get that knowledge if they don't drive?

The only accident my stepson has been in, he was by himself and hit a fence. He's now learned to pay attention to his turn and to slow down before he gets to it.

We restricted his driving in the beginning (partly because of said accident) but now drives pretty much freely, now that he has some experience.

ACK!

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Tuberski
However, how are they expected to get that knowledge if they don't drive?

The only accident my stepson has been in, he was by himself and hit a fence. He's now learned to pay attention to his turn and to slow down before he gets to it.

We restricted his driving in the beginning (partly because of said accident) but now drives pretty much freely, now that he has some experience.

ACK!

Exactly.

The article I posted (which I suppose no one read) shows this statistically. The graduated driver's license had the effect of taking away experience from young drivers, so when the GDL no longer applied to them they actually got in more accidents since they were less trained and less experienced drivers than those before the GDL law was passed.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tuberski
The only accident my stepson has been in, he was by himself and hit a fence.

Those damn fences, they just jump out at you.

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by Asher



Those damn fences, they just jump out at you.

He tried to claim a dog got in his way and he was avoiding the dog.

Fortunately, the people that owned the fence allowed us to rebuild the fence by ourselves without the insurance companies involved.

It was a >90 degree turn onto the road and he froze up and turned well past the amount he should have.

This diagram will help:

ACK!

[Asher]

That's very impressive.