Marriage, Gays, and Atheists

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


You were saying I'd die earlier because of a hearing impairment.

If you've got clinical evidence, then fine, but otherwise you are just digging the hole deeper.

It was among a whole list of other factors, including your apparent mental retardation. Mental retardation combined with sensory deprivation is a sure-fire mix to getting hit by a slow-moving bus.

Given the context of you saying I had half the life expectancy of a straight man, it's a completely fair comment.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


You explicitly said a Christian. NGR has called you out, and now I am doing the same.

Are you seriously this ****ing stupid?

You think no Christian has ever murdered a gay person?

Genuinely, you think this?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Asher


I'm not attacking him for having a disability, I'm using his arguments (past and present) about homosexuality being a defect of some sort and a trait that does not "benefit society" for a reason to deny rights. Some of us are born the way we are. I'm trying to equate it in a way he can understand -- eg, he shouldn't have less rights because he's borderline mentally retarded with a hearing disability.

Alright.

But he's not really borderline mentally retarded in real life, is he?

[Asher]

Originally posted by MrFun


Alright.

But he's not really borderline mentally retarded in real life, is he?

Unless he's pretending on these forums, he very likely is...

[Ben Kenobi]

It was among a whole list of other factors, including your apparent mental retardation. Mental retardation combined with sensory deprivation is a sure-fire mix to getting hit by a slow-moving bus.

Wow, jacking off much, Asher?

Given the context of you saying I had half the life expectancy of a straight man, it's a completely fair comment.

You admitted as such. What's the point of arguing something that we both know is true.

[Ben Kenobi]

You think no Christian has ever murdered a gay person?

[citation needed]

[Asher]

Originally posted by Zevico
What made the West great in comparison to everyone else was liberal democracy, or, put more accurately, the gradual liberalisation of politics over time in varying European societies. The people who believed in the things that writers such as Mill or Locke wrote are the people that have made the West great. Freedom of speech, proper democratic representation and equal civil rights for all is what has made the West great.

By contrast, it is ludicrous to suggest that governmental refusal to permit homosexuals those legal rights that come with what is commonly known as a 'marriage' agreement between two persons in any way contributed to the prosperity and greatness of Western Civilisation. Conversely it is ridiculous to suggest that the granting of certain legal rights to heterosexuals who have engaged in a marriage materially contributed to the greatness of Western civilisation.

For the record, I do not believe in infringing upon yours, or anyone elses' right to let out or refuse to let out a wedding hall for whatever purpose they may wish. This idea is simply wrong. It is an illiberal idea, and I see no relevant purpose or benefit to it. I am sure that most people who support the granting of legal marriage rights to homosexuals are of the same opinion. Regardless it really does nothing to support your argument against the granting of legal marriage rights to homosexuals as whole to say that there exist supporters of gay rights who happen to think that your church should be forced to let out its premises to homosexual couples. To the extent that you believe that a church or other organisation should be allowed to hire or refuse to hire out its premises to anyone it so chooses, and similarly marry off whoever it so chooses, I agree with you.
To the extent that this Canadian law suggests otherwise, I think it should be repealed. I am sure that if you and others of a like mind were to mount a campaign to change the law to that effect, you would find many supporters.

I should think that it is very clear that no one supports acts of vandalism or arson as against Catholic church property.

It is not illegal for the churches to prohibit gays from marrying them. That is made explicitly clear in the ruling by the tribunal.

What the church was at fault in was the method of refusing to marry the couple. It was disrespectful and arguably malicious.

[MrFun]

Christians in Middle Ages burned people alive for various reasons on charges of so-called "heresy."

Many of those victims were homosexuals. Do you need citation for what is already common knowledge and established fact in history?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
You admitted as such. What's the point of arguing something that we both know is true.

I've never admitted gay people have half the life expectancy of straight people, you epic ****ing ******.

[Asher]

Originally posted by MrFun
Christians in Middle Ages burned people alive for various reasons on charges of so-called "heresy."

Many of those victims were homosexuals. Do you need citation for what is already common knowledge and established fact in history?

He's never heard of Matthew Shepherd apparently. I thought everyone knew about him.

Murdered by two beautiful Christian boys. Boy scouts too.

[Ben Kenobi]

It is not illegal for the churches to prohibit gays from marrying them. That is made explicitly clear in the ruling by the tribunal.

What the church was at fault in was the method of refusing to marry the couple. It was disrespectful and arguably malicious.

Let's get this straight here.

This is a Catholic hall run by the knights. The litigants knew this ahead of time, and still booked there.

Why should the Catholic church have to pay a fine for hurt feelings, when we both know this was a shakedown of the Catholic Church? They are lucky the church didn't toss them out on their asses.

The correct ruling is to fine the folks launching the nuisance suit for harassment, and for the court costs of the Catholic church.

[Ben Kenobi]

He's never heard of Matthew Shepherd apparently. I thought everyone knew about him.

He was killed by Christians because he was gay?

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9900E6DD123EF935A15752C1A9629C8B63

News to me.

An ABC News report about the murder of Matthew Shepard in 1998, which focused national attention on violence against gays, has ignited indignation among gay rights advocates even before its broadcast tonight.

The hourlong report on ''20/20'' re-examines the murder of Mr. Shepard, 21, a college student who was tied to a fence, beaten and left to die by two men outside Laramie, Wyo.

The program includes prison interviews with the confessed killers, Aaron J. McKinney and Russell A. Henderson, who are serving life sentences. Mr. McKinney tells the ABC News correspondent Elizabeth Vargas that he was high on methamphetamine when he killed Mr. Shepard in a rage, explaining that his intent was to beat up and rob him.

''Did you kill Matthew Shepard because he was gay?'' Ms. Vargas asks. ''No, I did not,'' Mr. McKinney replies.

Mr. Henderson, who is appealing his sentence, also says on camera that the killing was simply a robbery gone bad. ''It was not because me and Aaron had anything against gays,'' he says.

Those leading the charge against the heavily promoted ABC report -- including Joan Garry, executive director of the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation -- said the program relied on speculation, two convicted killers and other witnesses lacking credibility who are now changing their stories or making accusations that cannot be proved.

Ms. Garry and others also noted that the contentions that robbery and drugs figured into the killing are old news, as is the assertion of the Albany County prosecutor, Cal Rerucha, that Mr. Shepard's sexual orientation played no role in the killing, as he re-states in the ''20/20'' interview.

''I would be prepared to hear a sound argument that something else was at play; this was not a sound argument,'' Ms. Garry said in an interview.

Jeffrey W. Schneider, an ABC News vice president, said he understood the concerns, which he said had been expressed in calls to the network. But he called the report ''both fair and accurate'' and said it was a result of a six-month investigation.

''I don't think our piece in any way diminishes a vitally important national conversation about hate,'' he said.

Sean Maloney, the lawyer for Judy Shepard, Mr. Shepard's mother, called the program ''just bad journalism,'' a simplification of a complex case. He appears in the report with Ms. Shepard.

''No one has maintained that this was only a hate crime,'' Mr. Maloney, a lawyer at Willie Farr & Gallagher in New York City, said in an interview. But ''there is a mountain of evidence that anti-gay bias was a trigger for the beating that left Matthew dead after they robbed him.''

Others said they welcomed a fresh look at the case. ''Whether this killing constitutes a hate crime or drug-fueled rage, robbery, some combination or whatever, we must not lose sight of justice,'' said Bill Dobbs, a lawyer and advocate for gay rights in Manhattan who opposed the death penalty in the case. Mr. Dobbs said he did not agree with every aspect of the ''20/20'' program but applauded ABC for producing it.

There has never been a unanimity of opinion about what role homophobia played in the case.

Quote, New York Times, End Quote.

[Ben Kenobi]

Christians in Middle Ages burned people alive for various reasons on charges of so-called "heresy."

That's the best you've got?

Weak.

[Naked Gents Rut]

I should do a study on gay male life expectancy next semester. Seems like there hasn't been a serious one using data from after 1992.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


He was killed by Christians because he was gay?

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9900E6DD123EF935A15752C1A9629C8B63

News to me.

It would be, but it seems you've no idea. He was convicted of a hate crime, and he even employed the "gay panic defense".

You lose, Ben. Bigtime.

Words cannot express how pathetic you and your argument are.