Catholicism and Voting

[Felch]

Originally posted by Deity Dude
I had an assistant basketball coach that was a priest. He constantly used the Lord's name in vein when attempting to point out some of our shortcomings on the basketball court.

I think that's awesome. I can just imagine some guy in a collar cussing up a storm.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Felch


Would you oppose a candidate that voted to allow late-term abortions? Note, that I'm not using the politically charged terminology here. I just think that even those who support choice should understand the need for restraint in availability of abortions. After all, the right to keep and bear arms is clearly spelled out in the Constitution, but we still have restrictions to prevent violent criminals from buying guns.

I think that a fair compromise would be to set the date at the start of brain activity. Catholics would be free to abstain from all abortions, naturally. Non-Catholics wouldn't have their civil rights violated. Anybody know what week a fetus starts having brain activity?

You and I agree on implementing reasonable restrictions for abortion. See the circumstances I think should allow for an abortion.

And as for allowing Catholics to abstain from all abortions - who in this thread is arguing to COMPEL a Catholic pregnant woman to get an abortion?

[Felch]

No one. Hence the "naturally."

[Deity Dude]

Originally posted by Felch

I think that a fair compromise would be to set the date at the start of brain activity. Catholics would be free to abstain from all abortions, naturally. Non-Catholics wouldn't have their civil rights violated. Anybody know what week a fetus starts having brain activity?

Your post assumes it is a "civil-right" for a woman to have an abortion before brain activity is detected. Many would disagree with this assertion.

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by DanS
This is the first I've heard of any priest saying that you should refrain from communion because you voted a certain way.

You are clearly not familiar with the Catholic Church then...

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Felch


I think that's awesome. I can just imagine some guy in a collar cussing up a storm.

Dude, I went to a Jesuit high school. Our rugby coach was a priest. He used to tell us dirty tricks to hurt our opponents without getting caught when we were in a scrum.

[Felch]

Originally posted by Deity Dude
Your post assumes it is a "civil-right" for a woman to have an abortion before brain activity is detected. Many would disagree with this assertion.

My assumption is that we govern by compromise. While I disagree with abortion as a private matter, as a public matter I believe the government has a clear responsibility to protect the life of any human being with brain activity. I don't believe it's a civil right, I just think it's more realistic than fighting to oppose all abortions.

Does that make things more clear?

[DanS]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
You are clearly not familiar with the Catholic Church then...

Perhaps not familiar with the part with which you are familiar.

[Deity Dude]

Originally posted by Felch

My assumption is that we govern by compromise. While I disagree with abortion as a private matter, as a public matter I believe the government has a clear responsibility to protect the life of any human being with brain activity. I don't believe it's a civil right, I just think it's more realistic than fighting to oppose all abortions.

Does that make things more clear?

We govern by what the laws are and then how they are enforced. Sometimes that is a result of compromise, sometimes not.

We don't compromise with murderers on laws governing murder. To someone who believes that any abortion is murder they would see your compromise as a compromise with murder. I'm not commenting on my personal belief just what some would believe.

You were the one that said allowing pre-brain activity abortions but not post-brain activity abortions would not violate a woman's Civil Rights. I think both sides of the debate would disagree with that assertion.

The side that feels abortion is a murder and a woman doesn't have a "civil-right" to commit that murder would find your compromise an agreement to murder.

The side that feels life begins at birth and until then the fetus is just another part of the woman's body and she has a civil right to do whatever she wants to her body would find your compromise a violation of her civil rights.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Felch


And who makes appointments to the SCOTUS?

Hasn't made a bit of diffrerence has it?

[Ben Kenobi]

Did you go to a priest to make a confession for voting for a pro-choice candidate? If it's a sin, why did you do so in the first place?

I actually went before I voted and explained to him my reasoning, and he absolved me.

I believe as a citizen of Canada that I have an obligation to vote, even if that means that I would end up casting my ballot for someone who is pro choice when there are no prolife folks on the ballot.

Of course a Catholic would be permitted to refrain from voting at all.

[pedrojedi]

Originally posted by Felch


Would you oppose a candidate that voted to allow late-term abortions? Note, that I'm not using the politically charged terminology here. I just think that even those who support choice should understand the need for restraint in availability of abortions. After all, the right to keep and bear arms is clearly spelled out in the Constitution, but we still have restrictions to prevent violent criminals from buying guns.

I think that a fair compromise would be to set the date at the start of brain activity. Catholics would be free to abstain from all abortions, naturally. Non-Catholics wouldn't have their civil rights violated. Anybody know what week a fetus starts having brain activity?

Actually, there's no "start", as the differentiating cells are always "active", and we all work with electrical diferences; every cell of our body has some form of eletric activity, and neurologic differences are too subtle to pinpoint the week that it is truly measurable. Also, as far as neurodevelopment is concerned, we never cease to evolve and ultimately our brain stops changing when we die.

The legal/medical barrier of 20 weeks/500g seems to me fair enough, though.

[Seedle]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


1. The Catholic church is not pacifist.

I know. But it isn't exactly pro-war either. It is certainly less anti-war than anti-abortion though, you are correct.

2. It isn't. If you can find me a Catholic who supports the death penalty then go right ahead.

As was discussed elsewhere in the thread, capital punishment is not as bad in the eyes of the church as I thought. Still frowned upon though, and most death penalty supporters support it in situations the chuch wouldn't allow it in.

If you are arguing that a Catholic should support someone who is for abortion and against the death penalty over someone who is for the death penalty and against abortion, the correct answer is that they should support neither.

I was suggesting neither.

There is no justification for Catholics voting for anyone who is pro abortion.

I agree. Thank goodness I don't know of any politicians who are pro-abortion. Just pro-choice.

[Felch]

Originally posted by Deity Dude
We govern by what the laws are and then how they are enforced. Sometimes that is a result of compromise, sometimes not.

We don't compromise with murderers on laws governing murder. To someone who believes that any abortion is murder they would see your compromise as a compromise with murder. I'm not commenting on my personal belief just what some would believe.

You were the one that said allowing pre-brain activity abortions but not post-brain activity abortions would not violate a woman's Civil Rights. I think both sides of the debate would disagree with that assertion.

The side that feels abortion is a murder and a woman doesn't have a "civil-right" to commit that murder would find your compromise an agreement to murder.

The side that feels life begins at birth and until then the fetus is just another part of the woman's body and she has a civil right to do whatever she wants to her body would find your compromise a violation of her civil rights.

I was just dealing in practicalities, not ideals. Of course both sides will reject it. But I think it's how things are likely to wind up, since it's pretty sensible. That or we'll all just get miniature American flags.

[Bosh]

Well...

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/11/diocese-repudia.html

Diocese Repudiates SC Priest Who Said Catholic Obama Supporters Need Penance Before Communion

November 15, 2008 1:01 PM

Father Jay Scott Newman, pastor of St. Mary’s Catholic Church in Greenville, SC, has told Catholics who voted for President-elect Obama that they need to seek penance before they take Communion, "lest they eat and drink their own condemnation," Newman wrote in a church newsletter, alluding to I Corinthians: "For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body [of the Lord] eats and drinks judgment on himself."

In a newsletter posted on the church website -- but since taken down -- Father Newman wrote that "Voting for a pro-abortion politician when a plausible pro-life alternative exits constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil, and those Catholics who do so place themselves outside of the full communion of Christ’s Church and under the judgment of divine law. Persons in this condition should not receive Holy Communion until and unless they are reconciled to God in the Sacrament of Penance, lest they eat and drink their own condemnation."

Via email the Greenville News interviewed Father Newman, who expressed chagrin at a recent poll indicating that fewer than 25% of American Catholics attend Mass every Sunday.

"Newman calls abortion the 'chief battleground' in the so-called culture wars, and different from 'prudential' matters such as health care, education or the war on terror," wrote the News. "A Catholic who gets an abortion, encourages one or assists in the procedure is automatically excommunicated from the church, Newman said, a penalty he said doesn't apply to other forms of killing. 'The reason is that abortion is usually murder in secret and it lays axe to human life at its root,' he said. With nearly 50 million abortions since Roe v. Wade, Newman said Obama would seek to make 'hidden murder' a legally protected right, and anyone who voted to give him such power 'will be complicit in the legal holocaust which will follow.'"

But in an unusual move, Monsignor Martin T. Laughlin, Administrator of the Diocese of Charleston, SC, has issued a statement and video repudiating Father Newman.

"This past week, the Catholic Church’s clear, moral teaching on the evil of abortion has been pulled into the partisan political arena," wrote Msgr. Laughlin. "The recent comments of Father Jay Scott Newman, pastor of St. Mary’s Catholic Church in Greenville, S.C., have diverted the focus from the Church’s clear position against abortion. As Administrator of the Diocese of Charleston, let me state with clarity that Father Newman’s statements do not adequately reflect the Catholic Church’s teachings. Any comments or statements to the contrary are repudiated."

"The Catechism of the Catholic Church states, 'Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions,'" Msgr. Laughlin continued. "The Catechism goes on to state: 'In the formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our path; we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord’s Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others and guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church.' Christ gives us freedom to explore our own conscience and to make our own decisions while adhering to the law of God and the teachings of the faith. Therefore, if a person has formed his or her conscience well, he or she should not be denied Communion, nor be told to go to confession before receiving Communion.

"The pulpit is reserved for the Word of God. Sometimes God’s truth, as is the Church’s teaching on abortion, is unpopular. All Catholics must be aware of and follow the teachings of the Church. We should all come together to support the President-elect and all elected officials with a view to influencing policy in favor of the protection of the unborn child."

Newman has since taken down his church newsletter and is now referring those seeking to read it to the website of the Diocese of Charleston.