Obama and Israel

[GePap]

Given that Sarko seems to back the Bush Admin's failed Iran policy, he is clearly wrong. Though I doubt any wester leader has an Iran "polic" worthy of that monicker.

[Naked Gents Rut]

Bush is following the right strategy on Iran at the moment. We need multilateral pressure on Iran. Not sure it will work without Russia or China fully on board, but it's the best option.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Naked Gents Rut
Bush is following the right strategy on Iran at the moment. We need multilateral pressure on Iran. Not sure it will work without Russia or China fully on board, but it's the best option.

And how does holding talks with Iran end this multilateral pressure?

As long as Iran has strong national security incentives to work towards a bomb, beyond its rights as a signatory of the NPT to nuclear power and a civilian enrichment program, it will continue on its path. Given that military action at the scale contemplated would either be ineffective or counterproductive, thinking that incomplete sanctions will work is silly.

[Naked Gents Rut]

And how does holding talks with Iran end this multilateral pressure?

Didn't you read the article? Sarkozy is worried that Obama will open direct negotiations with Iran without preconditions, as Obama has promised to do during the campaign. This would undermine the work of the current multilateral negotiations, since Iran is expected to meet certain conditions before negotiations on a long-term agreement can begin.

We remain ready to engage with Iran in negotiations on a comprehensive long-term agreement to resolve the Iranian nuclear issue. Creating the conditions for such negotiations requires that Iran fully and verifiably suspend its enrichment-related and reprocessing activities, as required by UNSC Resolutions 1737 and 1747. The Security Council has offered Iran the possibility of "suspension for suspension" - suspension of the implementation of measures if and for so long as Iran suspends all of its enrichment-related and reprocessing activities, as verified by the IAEA. We call upon Iran to accept that offer and allow for negotiations in good faith.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2007/sep/92944.htm

[GePap]

Those preconditions have led nowhere, as the Iranians have continued to enrich.

Maybe you are a big fan of continuing with failed policies, but I am not, and I welcome trying policies that might actually work towards achieving our stated goals, which is preventing Iran from creating nuclear weapons.

Talking tough is fine, when you can back your words up. Given that the West won't be able to get support for conprehensive sanctions, and won't undertake an invasion, which is the only military action that would guarantee ending the Iranian nuclear program, a change is needed because our tough talk is empty.

[Naked Gents Rut]

If I were Iran, I'd also continue to enrich if I thought the next U.S. President was going to open direct negotiations with me anyway despite my failure to meet the conditions set up by the P5 + 2. Why give up something to get negotiations when Obama will give them to you for free?

What I'm really interested in is what you think Obama is going to offer in direct negotiations that will achieve the stated goals of the United States. Will his mere presence be enough to dissuade an Iran that, as you said, "will continue on its path" so long as it "has strong national security incentives to work towards a bomb"? Or are we tossing aside years of multilateral cooperation on Iran so that Obama can prove he's not Bush while failing even more miserably to stop the Iranian nuclear program?

This is like North Korea all over again, only the Democrat is undoing all the work of the Republican this time around...

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Naked Gents Rut
If I were Iran, I'd also continue to enrich if I thought the next U.S. President was going to open direct negotiations with me anyway despite my failure to meet the conditions set up by the P5 + 2. Why give up something to get negotiations when Obama will give them to you for free?

Why do you think "negotiations" are of any inherent value to Iran?

[Naked Gents Rut]

Why do you thnk "negotiations" are of any inherent value to Iran?

They're of value to Iran if it values international recognition and removal of sanctions over nuclear weapons. If it doesn't, then nothing is going to work except for (possibly disastrous) military action. Either way, direct negotiations by Obama are pointless and counter-productive.

[Vesayen]

As a Jew, I have no worries about Obama and Israel. This election has been an embarrassment to me, personally. When Republicans run crappy commercials which lie and call Obama a terrorist I do not much care-only a fool would fall for them and why do I care if Republicans lie?

The Jewish Republican Coalition started running “Obama said he would speak with foreign leaders who are terrorists!” commercials. The first time I saw it I jumped out of my chair and was really pissed off and wanted to know who I could scream at. I thought about it for a little while, realized there was no one connected with the commercial I could ***** at calmed down a little.
Americans are allowed to be morons and believe Republican lies. What do I care? You can’t reach these people.

Americans are allowed to be morons and REPEAT Republican lies. What do I care? You can’t reach these people.

I think that American Jews are not allowed to be morons and believe or repeat Republican lies. You certainly can vote for McCain if you have a rational basis to do so, I guess you can even be a fool and believe the lies, but you are not allowed to repeat this bull****.

There is a sin in Judaism called (transliteration) “tachilu hashem”. Essentially, if Jews do something which make Jews look bad for no point, it makes G-D look bad and that in turn, is a sin. To clarify, if a Jew is a criminal it is not tachilu hashem to report him to the police, other people may learn a Jew was a criminal but that is fine since he actually is a criminal. For example, if a Jew stands on a soapbox in the middle of town and starts saying how all Jews hate America, that is tachilu hashem.

Jews are a small, small, small minority. When I see these sorts of commercials I fear the non Jews will think that all Jews are going to vote for McCain with a similar sort of slander/blood liable how some said JFK would be taking order from the Vatican…. when television advertisements get played in areas with lots of Jews saying how Obama does not support Israel, do my fellow citizens think that Jews are not loyal Americans?

Every time I see this garbage on television I want to scream. Every time a fellow Jew emails me the Republican talking point, slanders about Obama, lies etc, I want to tear my hair out.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Naked Gents Rut


They're of value to Iran if it values international recognition and removal of sanctions over nuclear weapons

This is avoiding my question. These are things which might result from an agreement, not from negotiations.

[Ramo]

Preconditions are retarded, throw rocks at them.

[Naked Gents Rut]

This is avoiding my question. These are things which might result from an agreement, not from negotiations.

I don't follow. You can't get an agreement without negotiations. If Iran wants sanctions lifted and international recognition, they'll suspend enrichment and negotiate. If Iran prefers nuclear weapons, they won't negotiate (at least not in good faith.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Naked Gents Rut
You can't get an agreement without negotiations.

I'm glad to see you're on the same page as Obama.

[Naked Gents Rut]

The Iranians are going to negotiate with us either way if they value a removal of sanctions and international recognition over nukes. The difference between the Bush/P5 strategy and the Obama strategy is that we actually get something valuable before negotiations begin with the Bush strategy, namely suspension of enrichment and therefore more time for the process to play out. Obama's strategy is immature and gets us nothing.

[Ramo]

we actually get something valuable before negotiations begin with the Bush strategy, namely suspension of enrichment and therefore more time for the process to play out.