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  • Originally posted by Naked Gents Rut


    Can you explain this? I don't understand why Iran would "start moving backward" if they suspended. Why can't they just pick up where they left off at a later date? Something to do with how the cascades work?
    If they shut down their cyclotrons and send the scientists and engineers to go work on something else the specific technical know-how gets lost, the machines start to break down, etc. This is a serious issue for them. Labs don't start up and shut down quickly. When an experimental physicist starts work somewhere it can easily take years before he has any results at all, even if he is coming from a lab where he was regularly publishing papers. There is a HUGE cost associated with this.

    Read the P5 + 2 statement I linked to earlier. They're offering Iran the suspension of sanctions in return for Iran's suspension of enrichment.


    This is better than what I thought had been offered, but may not be enough for Iran to find it worthwhile. The real danger is that by adopting too tough a line we will not discover Iran's true intentions regarding their nuke program. There are 3 major possibilities:

    1) It is a negotiating chip. Iran wants economic and diplomatic normalization, a non-aggression agreement, perhaps some sort of concessions regarding Iraq

    2) It is a propaganda tool.

    3) They really want nuclear weapons. This breaks down into

    3a) They want nuclear weapons to deter aggression on the part of Israel and the US

    3b) They want nuclear weapons to make things go boom

    3b is the least probable of the above possible motivations, and is the obvious doomsday scenario

    That said, we would like at all costs to stop them even if their goal is 3a. Iran is an exporter of terrorism, and we would like to retain the option of limited military strikes on Iran to combat this (though I think the value of this option is probably overstated in Israel and some parts of the US). Also, we don't know when the government in Iran will change sufficiently that their motivations mutate to 3b. If Iran wants a nuke and is just playing games to avoid action we need to discover this as soon as possible so we can either decide to attack them or to simply normalize relations and let them go nuclear (this is the scenario where we've decided that we'd rather live with a nuclear Iran than pay the cost of preventing it; my fear is that we've already passed this point)

    2 is difficult. We need to pay them enough so that they can retire the nuke program and appear to their own populace to have won. At the same time, we would like other countries who are thinking of starting a nuke program to see us as having won (though I think this consideration is secondary). 2 is the one most likely to cause Iran to act erratically. They will engage in excessive posturing to get maximum value out of things. They might drag things out in order to give the issue lots of air time.

    1 is the easiest. They want to negotiate, but also want the best possible deal.

    We need to design a negotiating strategy/agreement which:

    First priority: reveals Iran's intentions quickly. This argues for a relatively generous offer up front with a short time horizon (backed up with the implied threat of military action?). The military threat cannot be too explicit or else they will not want to cave (especially if they are doing 2).

    Second priority: is strongly enforceable. We will need to pay Iran more for this (assuming they want to deal).

    Third priority: makes the rest of the world not want to play the same game Iran just has. I doubt this will be possible given the other two priorities.

    The real problem is that our negotiating strategy could not distinguish between 1, 2 and 3. We're just waiting as time ticks down, and are not getting any surer what our opposition is planning to do. They've shown patience on the time scale of years, and assuming they're making reasonable progress on their program, have gotten significantly closer to a functional weapon. I don't see what good holding the line will do.
    12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
    Stadtluft Macht Frei
    Killing it is the new killing it
    Ultima Ratio Regum

    Comment


    • I don't think we're really in disagreement on this; I'm certainly in favor of sweetening the pot in order to get Iran to agree to suspend enrichment before negotiations begin. As you said, the faster we ascertain Iran's true intentions, the better. All I'm saying is that undermining the existing P5 framework by opening direct U.S./Iran negotiations without preconditions is a dumb strategy. We should be modifying the current framework.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Naked Gents Rut

        This isn't true. Just look at North Korea. The price of buying them off now, after they've actually gone nuclear, is the same as it was during the Clinton administration. Economic assistance, normalized relations, etc.
        Except that the Clinton admin. never really delivered the payoff, so while the North Koreans are asking for the same general things, the US will have to pony up this time, or accept a nuclear North Korea.

        That is a higher cost.
        If you don't like reality, change it! me
        "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
        "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
        "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

        Comment


        • Tom Friedman made some good points today about how oil prices have given the U.S. much more leverage over Iran, along with a couple of his usual dumbass points...

          Barack Hussein Obama would present another challenge for Iran’s mullahs. Their whole rationale for being is that they are resisting a hegemonic American power that wants to keep everyone down. Suddenly, next week, Iranians may look up and see that the country their leaders call “The Great Satan” has just elected “a guy whose middle name is the central figure in Shiite Islam — Hussein — and whose last name — Obama — when transliterated into Farsi, means ‘He is with us,’ ” said Sadjadpour.


          I'm sure the Iranians really give a **** about what the U.S. President's name means.

          Comment


          • Except that the Clinton admin. never really delivered the payoff, so while the North Koreans are asking for the same general things, the US will have to pony up this time, or accept a nuclear North Korea.

            That is a higher cost.
            The price is still the same, whether we paid it the first time around or not.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Naked Gents Rut
              I'm sure the Iranians really give a **** about what the U.S. President's name means.
              I'm sure they have their "rednecks" too

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Slaughtermeyer
                The Jerusalem Post reported that "Authorities suspect the terrorists intended to blow up the main crossing between New Jersey and New York..."



                Apparently something tipped off the authorities to suspect that the GW Bridge was the target. The van that was stopped on Route 3 had "maps of the city in the car with certain places highlighted," the source said. "It looked like they're hooked in with this. It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park." Therefore if there was a map with the World Trade Center and the bridge highlighted, it would be reasonable to conclude the bridge was targeted. Perhaps it was some other piece of evidence that led the authorities to conclude that the bridge was the target, but we can't know for sure because the FBI classified all evidence connecting Israelis to 9/11.

                http://web.archive.org/web/200111080...n200109125.htm
                Tell me Slaughtermeyer, howcome Bush hasn't declared martial law yet? Is President-Elect Obama one of "them" too?
                Unbelievable!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Darius871
                  Tell me Slaughtermeyer, howcome Bush hasn't declared martial law yet? Is President-Elect Obama one of "them" too?
                  A Scripps-Howard poll taken in 2006 found that 67% of all Blacks know the truth about 9/11, so based on this alone chances are Obama knows the truth about 9/11.



                  Obama so far has given every indication that he is not beholden to Zionist Neocon interests and therefore is not "one of them." His selection of Joe Biden is an important indicator of this. Biden (along with Obama) voted against the resolution declaring the Iranian Revolutionary Guards a "terrorist organization" and even threatened to cut off all aid to Israel. In 1998, Biden was one of only four senators to vote against the Iran Missile Proliferation Sanctions Act, a bill that punished foreign companies or other entities that sent Iran sensitive missile technology or expertise.



                  Click here and here to find out how close the George Washington Bridge came to being blown up on 9/11 and why all evidence against those terrorists was classified. Click here to see the influence of Neocon Zionists in the USA and how they benefitted from 9/11. Remember the USS Liberty and the Lavon Affair.

                  Comment


                  • Unbelievable!
                    12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                    Stadtluft Macht Frei
                    Killing it is the new killing it
                    Ultima Ratio Regum

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Slaughtermeyer

                      A Scripps-Howard poll taken in 2006 found that 67% of all Blacks know the truth about 9/11, so based on this alone chances are Obama knows the truth about 9/11.



                      Obama so far has given every indication that he is not beholden to Zionist Neocon interests and therefore is not "one of them." His selection of Joe Biden is an important indicator of this. Biden (along with Obama) voted against the resolution declaring the Iranian Revolutionary Guards a "terrorist organization" and even threatened to cut off all aid to Israel. In 1998, Biden was one of only four senators to vote against the Iran Missile Proliferation Sanctions Act, a bill that punished foreign companies or other entities that sent Iran sensitive missile technology or expertise.

                      http://www.rightsidenews.com/2008082...on-israel.html
                      So he knows the truth about 9/11, and yet is not beholden to those responsible for it? How does that compute?

                      The other possibility is that he doesn't know, but how could he not quickly find out about a conspiracy so pervasive upon taking office? Would "they" just off him if he gets too close?
                      Unbelievable!

                      Comment


                      • I for one hope that Obama makes toppling the ZOG the highest priority of his administration. The new New Deal can come after...

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Slaughtermeyer

                          A Scripps-Howard poll taken in 2006 found that 67% of all Blacks know the truth about 9/11, so based on this alone chances are Obama knows the truth about 9/11.


                          Well with that stellar reasoning, I can see exactly how you got at the 'truth' so easily.
                          "You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."--General Sir Charles James Napier

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by fed1943
                            I never understood why a lot of clever people are concerned with
                            Iran's weapons and not with Pakistan's ones.
                            Sep 11 came from Pakistan, not from Iran, right?
                            The Pakistani government's connection to 9/11 is something the Bush administration understandably does not wish to emphasize. The head of the Pakistani intelligence agency ISI, Gen. Mahmoud Ahmed, sent via wire transfer $100,000 to lead hijacker Mohammed Atta. Also, Gen. Ahmed was in Washington during the week of 9/11 and met with CIA leader George Tenet and other important officials.

                            Michael Meacher: There is evidence of foreign intelligence backing for the 9/11 hijackers. Why is the US government so keen to cover it up?


                            In light of the above, it does not surprise me that according to the 9/11 Commission "the U.S. government has not been able to determine the origin of the money used for the 9/11 attacks. Ultimately the question is of little practical significance."
                            [Page 172, The 9/11 Commission Report, emphasis added]
                            Click here and here to find out how close the George Washington Bridge came to being blown up on 9/11 and why all evidence against those terrorists was classified. Click here to see the influence of Neocon Zionists in the USA and how they benefitted from 9/11. Remember the USS Liberty and the Lavon Affair.

                            Comment


                            • Unbelievable!

                              Comment


                              • I think it's clear how this ties in:

                                One of the best examples of how consumers look to Disney as a trusted source of quality travel and leisure offerings is Disney Cruise Line. Disney established the new family category of cruising a decadeago and since then has remained the leader in this growing industry. Given this success, two new ships are being built in Papenburg,
                                Germany
                                , and they are scheduled to join the fleet in 2011 and 2012, respectively.


                                2007 Walt Disney Company Annual Report to Shareholders, p.27 (emphasis added)
                                12-17-10 Mohamed Bouazizi NEVER FORGET
                                Stadtluft Macht Frei
                                Killing it is the new killing it
                                Ultima Ratio Regum

                                Comment

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