Obama and Israel

[Sirotnikov]

Having bad commanders is even wors than having bad armour.

qft.

that is slowly changing.

Still it would be an overpriced overkill.

Remember, I'm not talking about a second Yom-Kippur war. I'm talking about many smaller-scale conflicts with non-state entities and slow outbreeding. AFAIR, Israel is only growing because of the ultra-Orthodox, and they don't make good soldiers.

israel is not only growing because of the uo. true they have a large over-representation in that, but that's not true.

also, some of them are slowly entering army service, and those who do make excellent soldiers. they're smart, well disciplined and highly motivated.

[Zevico]

What does America have to do with peace between Israel and its neighbours anyway? The countries and people of the Middle East are responsible for their own actions and decisions. American support for Israel is irrelevant to this process, relative to other factors that affect the stability of the region and conflict with Israel. Take for example:

1. Israelis and Palestinians. An existential conflict; presently most Palestinians do not recognise Israel on terms acceptable to the Israelis, i.e. as a 'Jewish State.' If the US withdraws military support for Israel, how will the political beliefs of Israelis or Palestinians change or be affected?

2. Israelis and Syrians. Syria is a client state of Iran. Until it finds itself another stable source of income, I am not sure whether it will desire to conclude a peace treaty with Israel. But suppose America withdraws aid to Israel. How will this affect Israeli-Syrian relations?

3. Israelis and Hezballah/many Lebanese. This is another existential conflict based on severe ideological differences.

And on, and on.
'Peace' in the region will only be attained when people in the Middle East share some common political beliefs. There cannot be a 'peace' between Israel, as it presently exists, and Hamas, as it is presently exists; or Israel and Hezballah; or Israel and the Islamic Republic of Iran; and so on.
A withdrawal of aid by America won't change any of this. It will simply lower Israel's qualitative military edge over other countries in the region. Most of the Middle East will go on thinking Israelis are devils. Israelis will go on living their lives, albeit somewhat less secure than before. The conflicts will continue, but those opposed to Israel's existence will simply be more willing to attack or threaten it in order to end its existence or further their own extraneous political agendas.

I don't think Iran has any intention of attacking Israel with nuclear weapons. I think Iran's political/clerical establishment understand the concept of MAD as well as anyone else. While their strategies and tactics may in many cases be informed by ignorance and conspiracy theory, I take the line that the doctrine can survive even that level of inanity.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

I don't ever recall Israel being the reason you attacked Afghanistan, or Iraq.

America supports Israel --> muslims and Arabs hate America --> september 11th --> invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq

a) We hardly get foreign aid. Just military aid.

Even worse.

b) i can't, for the life of me, understand how you're bothere by some alliance that has nothing to do with you, you Syrian zealot.

Because I wuv Jews and wish the best for them, and the best for Jews is to leave in peace, wuv and harmony with Arabs
Israel is harming Arabs for the last half of century. America supports it. It is wrong. That's why I want it to stop.

Your country is just jealous it got less US-aid.

I wouldn't mind USA sending money to Poland, esp. since it needs it more than Israel does.
But it's a different matter.

Actually it is only US inolvement that helped achieve peace with its involvement.

The countries we are at peace at, all happen to be US allies:
- Egypt gets tons of money for the peace with us
- Jordan gets tons of money for the peace with us
- Saudi Arabia is defacto in armistice with us
- Other ME countries supported by the US, are usually on good terms with us.

Peace with Egypt and Jordan for Israel was not achieved due to America's unconditional support for Israel, but due to America's pressure on Israel, which it hardly ever does. USA had to almost force Israel to have peace with Egypt, and it (Kissinger, notabene a Jew) wasn't extremly happy about it either. Kissinger and his fellows expected an unconditional surrender to american demands to even talk with Egypt, throwing Soviets out and stuff. Sadat did that and even then it took Kissinger some time to treat him seriously. Only when he attacked Israel and seriously endangered it, Kissinger was willing to pressure Israel a bit to force it to peace.

Today, USA's strategy remains the same. USA demands from Syria disvolvement of its alliances with Hizb Allah and Iran, which would mean compromitation and is almost impossible to make without any tangible benefits,
to even talk with Syria.
All because it is a good excuse for not seeking real peace.
I wonder what would USA do if Syria would really do that. I think they would be very suprised and would do what Kissinger initially did: play dumb.

Israel is not interested in a peace treaty. If Israel wanted peace with Syria, it'd have it. But it want to keep lands (Gawlan) it occupied. If it wanted peace with lebanon, it'd have it, but it wants to keep lands it's occupied (Shebaa farms). If it wanted peace with Palestinians, it'd have it, but it thinks reducing Palestine to 29% of its original size is not enough, and wants more and more land.
Keeping status quo is very good for Israel, because it allows it to keep the lands it wants and colonise it, it (in Syrian and Palestinian case - Gawlan and Jordan line) makes Israel's military position better, it keeps ultrareligious parties happy, and makes good excuse for demanding military aid from USA.


Btw, I've seen a guy very similar to You in my bourse.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Heresson
America supports Israel --> muslims and Arabs hate America --> september 11th --> invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq

more like

Muslims and Arabs can't deal with the fact they're victim of the Rise and Fall of civilizations -> Muslims and Arabs try to restore power by copying western political style during the first half of the 20th century -> Leaders are corrupt, bring tyranny instead of democracy -> Muslims and Arabs disillusioned with poorly executed western politics, fallback on religious extremism, old regimes become target -> Changes in muslim political thought affected by Khomeini revolution and war in Afghanistan -> Muslim anger channeled and directed at western hegemony -> War in Afghanistan creates a strong clan sure of its superiority -> War against Dar-al-Kharb ensues -> September 11 -> Invasion of Afghanistan.


This is the basic history, that should be known to anyone who has studied history 101.

Because I wuv Jews and wish the best for them, and the best for Jews is to leave in peace, wuv and harmony with Arabs

I guess the 1920, 1921, 1929, 1935-38 massacares of Jews in mandatorial palestine were just a reaction to the conquered land in 1967... oh wait... that didn't exist.

Israel is harming Arabs for the last half of century. America supports it. It is wrong. That's why I want it to stop.

roflz

Almost a million people died in the Iran Iraq war. Is Israel responsible for that?
20,000 people died in inner Syrian purgings in Hamma. Is Israel responsible for that?

Arabs are screwing themselves around for almost a century under corrupt tyrannical leaders that use Israel as an excuse to keep their citizens enslaved, right-less and dirt poor.

You have absolutely no conscience and no willingness to hold any Arab leader accountable to anything.

I wouldn't mind USA sending money to Poland, esp. since it needs it more than Israel does.
But it's a different matter.

of course you wouldn't mind that.


The rest of your post is long and incorrect.

Egypt chose peace with Israel as a tactic, to gain two major advantages:
1) realign with the 'winning' side of the cold war
2) get back land it lost repeatedly, and save face.

Jordan had several decades of secret relations with Israel and only chose official peace when it was in dire need for 1) american support (due to a financial crisis, and since they were on america's bad side, having supported Saddam in 1991).
2) drinking water from Israel.

Syria's own courting of Israel as of late are merely a way to get stricken out of the axis of evil list. Syria is on the verge of huge economical crisis, as it's cash and oil reserves are disappearing.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Riesstiu IV
Jesus Christ, when did Israel become the 51st state? Why does every politician have to promise monetary and military support. You could probably solve a lot of anti-American hatred among the camel jockeys by not taking a strong stance on the Israel/Palestine issues like Japan does. Having such a strong alliance with Israel doesn't do much for us and Israel has been a pretty questionable ally at times. Still not as bad as Saudi Arabia.

American Jews vote.

American Jews have money to invest in AIPAC.

That is why the US is giving Israel an eternal rimjob.

[Lancer]

Originally posted by Julian Delphiki



Bulls***.

I don't think I've seen that with the 's' before. Very creative. Usually its bull****, and I'm an expert in these matters you know. That's nice because with bull**** some idiot might think you meant bullf***, which really doesn't apply.



You guys with your 'jews vote' so we do this or that. I think the reason the US supports Israel is because we believe in religious freedom and democracy and because we're not a bunch of nazis.

[Traianvs]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov


Almost a million people died in the Iran Iraq war. Is Israel responsible for that?
20,000 people died in inner Syrian purgings in Hamma. Is Israel responsible for that?

Arabs are screwing themselves around for almost a century under corrupt tyrannical leaders that use Israel as an excuse to keep their citizens enslaved, right-less and dirt poor.

You have absolutely no conscience and no willingness to hold any Arab leader accountable to anything.

Why do you say that? I don't hear anyone supporting Saddam around here, except the US government when Saddam was a useful pawn in the American struggle towards geo-political dominance in the Middle-East.

You are absolutely right when you say everything the US does in the Middle-East is out of self-interest. In that respect realism still rules the upper tenets of power.

But nobody advocating peace will claim Israel is the root of all evil. What they are saying is that Israel is not a democratic haven that the Arabs should listen to, because essentially Israel is motivated by self-interest as well. People seeking peace pursue an international multilateral cooperation instead of the traditionalist power politics. Because as we have seen for such a long time, the old ways fail to keep peace and stability. Unilateral power politics are the easy way out for a short while, but only for as long as you stay powerful. It's a given that dominance is never going to be a lasting position. One day the balance of power will tip over to another direction and you'll hope that you had started implementing international cooperation, respect for international law, conforming to signed agreements, the building of trust rather than imposing military might etc.

And that applies to everyone, be they Israeli, Arab or American.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Agathon


American Jews vote.

American Jews have money to invest in AIPAC.

That is why the US is giving Israel an eternal rimjob.

You've got it all backwards. Jews only make up 3% of the US population so the politicians aren't exactly tripping over themselves to make Jews happy. Instead it's the protestant fundamentalists who believe Israel must be kept in existence so they can usher in the end of times via the Biblical prophecy which the politicians are pandering to.

[Barnabas]

If Miami Cubans can keep the Cuban Embargo, then American Jews + Christian Zionnists, being much more, can keep the Israel policy.

Changing the Israel policy is electoral suicide. Especially because of the particular American electoral system.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

more like

Muslims and Arabs can't deal with the fact they're victim of the Rise and Fall of civilizations -> Muslims and Arabs try to restore power by copying western political style during the first half of the 20th century -> Leaders are corrupt, bring tyranny instead of democracy -> Muslims and Arabs disillusioned with poorly executed western politics, fallback on religious extremism, old regimes become target -> Changes in muslim political thought affected by Khomeini revolution and war in Afghanistan -> Muslim anger channeled and directed at western hegemony -> War in Afghanistan creates a strong clan sure of its superiority -> War against Dar-al-Kharb ensues -> September 11 -> Invasion of Afghanistan.


This is the basic history, that should be known to anyone who has studied history 101.

And anyone with primary school education knows there may be multiple reasons and explenations to a single event. Yes, of course it is true, but Israel played a major role in it. It is convenient for You to deny it, of course, it is sort of patriotic, so I won't pressure You, my little zionist friend.

I guess the 1920, 1921, 1929, 1935-38 massacares of Jews in mandatorial palestine were just a reaction to the conquered land in 1967... oh wait... that didn't exist.

These weren't massacres, but uprisings against british occupation / mandate. Yes, they were aimed at Jews as well, with good reasons for that.
Jews were buying lands and expelling Arab tenants. Jewish corporations, due to Histadrut demands, were not hiring Arab employees. Arabs were afraid of fulfilling unclear promesses to Jews and that they would live under jewish rule (which, notabene, happened).

Almost a million people died in the Iran Iraq war. Is Israel responsible for that?
20,000 people died in inner Syrian purgings in Hamma. Is Israel responsible for that?

Arabs are screwing themselves around for almost a century under corrupt tyrannical leaders that use Israel as an excuse to keep their citizens enslaved, right-less and dirt poor.

Iran is not Arab. A war can happen everywhere.
Hama was not a purging, but a very brutal putting out a fundamentalist (Muslim Brotherhood) uprising.

You have absolutely no conscience and no willingness to hold any Arab leader accountable to anything.

But of course I do. But that doesn't make Israel any nicer.

Egypt chose peace with Israel as a tactic, to gain two major advantages:
1) realign with the 'winning' side of the cold war
2) get back land it lost repeatedly, and save face.

And? I am not denying that.

Jordan had several decades of secret relations with Israel and only chose official peace when it was in dire need for 1) american support (due to a financial crisis, and since they were on america's bad side, having supported Saddam in 1991).
2) drinking water from Israel.

I am fully aware of that. Some even say that in the war of Israeli independance, Amman was secretely counting on jewish victory, because it made it easier for it to annex rest of Palestine.

Syria's own courting of Israel as of late are merely a way to get stricken out of the axis of evil list. Syria is on the verge of huge economical crisis, as it's cash and oil reserves are disappearing.

Hm, I don't know about that, but it doesn't change anything I've written in my post.

[Dinner]

These weren't massacres, but uprisings against british occupation / mandate. Yes, they were aimed at Jews as well, with good reasons for that.
Jews were buying lands and expelling Arab tenants. Jewish corporations, due to Histadrut demands, were not hiring Arab employees. Arabs were afraid of fulfilling unclear promesses to Jews and that they would live under jewish rule (which, notabene, happened).

You're ignoring the 10,000lb elephant in the room which is the main reason Palestinians were upset was due to Jewish immigrations which the UK allowed in order to honor the Belfour Declaration made during WW1. The presence of Jews and Jewish immigrants wasn't just a part of these uprisings but the central cause.

The anti-Jewish massacres were the main reason for the Jews to band together in self defense forces some of which later became terrorist groups agitating for an independent Israel and/or conducting reprisal attacks or even just out right attacks against Arab villages. I just don't see how Palestinians have even a remotely clean hand in this they created their own worst enemy with their anti-Jewish massacres.

[Heresson]

Oh yes, of course, no-one ever dreamed about a jewish state before these alleged massacres. Zionism was just about living in Palestine under Arab rule.

The Brits promessed Arabs independance. They did not give them that.
The Brits promessed Jews national homeland in Arab lands.
The Brits, despite their promesses to the Arabs, were allowing Jews in.
The Brits, despite their own quotas, were not expelling the illegal jewish immigrants.
If your country was under occupation by UK, and it decided to solve Irish problem by settling the Irish in your land and creating their national homeland there, You wouldn't like that either.

[Dinner]

Naw, Irish are ok.

[Naked Gents Rut]

Isn't Massachusetts already the national homeland for the Irish?

[Zevico]

I think everyone agrees the British messed the Middle East up. Not like anyone there needed help, but the British can always be relied upon to mess things up when called for.
If you read up on the history of British political thinking at the time, get this--the Brits were pro-Zionist because they thought Jews controlled the Ottoman Empire/'New Turks'. It was a means of persuading the Jews to pull some strings and force the Ottoman Empire out of the war. The British were at the time very dependent on the British foreign attaches/consuls for the formulation of foreign policy with respect to the ME and one of the British attaches in the Middle East was convinced that Zionists controlled the Ottoman Empire. It could well be the most ridiculous move by the Brits in that region ever.